okay, newsflash up front.. this is a left leaning liberal suggestion...I'm sure Airwinger and Thud might actually join forces to combat the stance..so sue me for getting in touch with my ' feminine' side..

CLOSE DOWN GUANTANAMO!!

Whether or not you agree with Amnesty International's description of the US prison for suspected terrorists at Gitmo as the ' gulag of our times ' [ a gross overstatement - okay ?] its alleged usefulness in Dubya's war on terrorism is well past. It's even possible that Bush is beginning to accept that it should be closed. This week, for the first time, he didn't rule it out - sure he said " What We don't want to do is let somebody out that comes back and harms us "..but, you get the idea..

fair enough..but, let's face it, authorities have had more than enough time to determine if the 540 prisoners still held [ some of them in the fourth year of captivity ] in detention without being charged or tried, pose a threat. The irony is that Gitmo may be a breeding ground, now, for the kind of Islamic grievances the US worries so much about.. The longer they hold possibly innocent people, in violation of international law, the more likely they will be pissed off at America when they are set free.

Letting the prison continue to operate is giving America's enemies a propoganda gift and is apowerful recruiting tool for radical jihadists..

Former Pres, Jimmy Carter claims that shutting down the facility would remove the growing stain of hypocrisy.. an offshore prison, where neither US nor international law applies...ho2w does that promote freedom anddemocracy around the world. " ...defending human rights and ensuring our collective security go hand in hand, " he says...

What, then, should be done with the ' detainees '? If they are dangerous, charge them and put them on trial in open court so that they can defend themselves - a right that separates a democracy from unaccountable regimes [ the ones the US is against ] Otherwise...set them free, let them go home or send them somewhere else that will accept them.

If Washington is worried about dangerous offenders, bring them before the tribunals provided for in the Geneva Convention to determine if they are ' lawful combatants '..by no means should they be ' rendered ' to a third party government thqat practices torture [ as has been documented, despite denials ]..

Get on with it, Guantanamo is getting to be a repugnant boil on the butt of US claims to respect and freedom...

over to you... let the bun fight begin...

I agree....We've tip-toed around international law keeping things the way they are and it's a huge proganda mill for those who wish us ill.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: patoloco,

There are legal remedies that can serve justice to these prisoners that have always worked in the past. If they are thought to be guilty, than prosecute them and if they are thought to be innocent, then let them go. If they are POWs, they should be sent back to Afghanistan and let them deal with them.

Rocketeer, I tend to view each situation in it's own light and not try to fit it into some sort of ideological spin. I agree with all the points you have made.

My Secret Squirrel sources inform me that whatever intelligence we've wrung out of the detainees is having little effect upon the GWOT. It's become a festering sore and a major distraction, not to mention enemy fodder for the War of Minds. It's outlived it's usefulness if it ever had any real merit to begin with.

Shut it down. The sooner the better.

Thud I tend to agree with you, it has outlived it's usefulness if it ever had any

Whoa....back up the truck son.

No thought given to those insurgents and terrorist that we DO capture? Just where would you have us take them to interrogate? New Jersey? Atlanta? Dallas? LA?

Are you stating that these guy's should be processed via our court system?

Bad press or not, the base SERVES its purpose, and is still needed as an interogation center external to our convoluted court system.

Hard to imagine someone advocating that a guy caught right after firing a RPG into the side of a Hummer loaded with our troops is gonna receive a paid for lawyer, appeals, and possible freedom via trial by jury....just because the witnesses are still in country fighting a war and can't appear at the trial.

Oh yeah, then he'll get a free ride back to where he was captured or close to it......

is that about right?

I really don't want to hear squat about human rights crap.....what about the human rights of our people? forgot all about 9/11 already?

Gunny makes the obvious point....what do you do with the terrs?Or,whatever PC name we give them?
Are they not a danger to US citizens?Are they not a danger to US interests?Are we not still at war?
Why does GITMO have to be closed?Beacause foreigners think that's what should be done?
Let them out in your neighborhood....I'm sure Canada will welcome them with open arms and provide assistance with housing,medical and food....oh wait,that's what they're getting in GITMO!!!!

ooooh.. nice tangent, Gunny...

What I'm saying is that the ' detainees ' at Gitmo are being treated ' outside the law ' and as such are giving the US bad press from within and without..
either the prisoners are enemy combattants [ soldiers fighting for the other side - the RPG guy you point out ] and therefore entitled to treatment commensurate to the treatment US prisoners would be expected to receive by the ' enemy ' should they be taken..this includes not only food and lodging but due prosess - no matter how nice you bathe and clothe them, no matter how much you ' allow 'them this and that - keeping them incarcerated without charge [ for 4 years ] or access to the process of proving their innocence/ guilt/ stupidity is wrong.

If the purpose of Gitmo is to provide a ' haven ' for interrogation techniques and other efforts which may be contrued/suspected as torture [ however defined ]- procedures which the government is ' uncomfortable ' to have revealed to the public or techniques that would be considered suspect or illegal under US lawe..then I see a problem, if only in perception..
Other people in the world are not good enough/not equal to Americans and therefore not owrthy of the same respect?

As to those ' detained' .. these are, as well aknow, mostly Afghaistanis taken during the fight against the Taliban...footsoldiers and flunkies..not one is a high profile Leader.. and, after four years of prodding and poking or pissing on the Koran has proven that they know squat.. especially about where Osama is [ or more likely was since they've been out of the loop ] or the US would have had the guy by now..

what you've got is a bunch of tired, stale, worn out low level cannon fodder whose only ' experience ' of the great democracy which was out to show them the badness of authoritarian systems [ Osama/Taliban ] has been exactly the same as they experienced under their own leadership to begin with..

great PR for Bush..is all I'm sayin...
and gunny, no one is forgetting 9/11 and the WT buildings..just syaing thet the guys at Gitom have nothing to do with it, if they ever did and are being held for no apparent reason [ mindful of the ' secret nature' of spies/intel ] that can be seen by Jo and Jane Sixpack in Podunk Falls..

as for where to put the actual terrorists and other nefarious types you mentioned in your first line?.. Well why the hell not put them in with the ' good guys ' at Sing Sing/ Levenworth or wherever?.. One night with Bubba or Leroy or N'ubuke and they'll be singing the entire contents of Osama's porn stash...and as for torture methods.. can't figure out why the CIA hasn't sat them all down to watch Dubya conduct a press cconference on a closed loop...have them singing faster than lights out in the max wing ....

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rocketeer,

Nicely stated.

Thud, ruminatin' on how Canucks is mosty reasonable people 'cept wit beer and hockey sticks...

Hmmmm, so its all about perception huh?

OK percieve this: they are the enemy. Any doubts on that part?

We should alter our stance based on what? Bad press? Just because you think its wrong?

Make then Prisoners of War? why, just because of your perception? If anything, they should just proceed with the military tribunals on each of them. That is the right thing to do. Go ahead and pass judgement on them. That was the original intent behind Gitmo. This would also provide much of what you are pointing out as to these individuals so called rights. That in my opinion is what you should be advocating. But being Canadian, your response is typical and expected. What does it take to piss off a Canuck? Well, outside of losing a hockey game, I haven't been able to come up with an answer to that yet....You guy's are just too frigging nice for your own good. (sorry, there I go off on a tangent again)

One side result of these long stays at gitmo, is that these individuals have been rendered useless to the opposition, mostly due to the length of time they have been out of the picture. Even if they were processed and released, it is doubtful that they would take the steps to re-engage with our troops back in country.

As to all of the detainee's all being little fish in the pond, just ain't so, go back and take a good look at the list of names we have announced as captured. I could care less for thier current experiences under the taliban our being held in our custody. It ain't like we captured them while they were just sitting at Ali-Babba's Coffee shop and grill.

I find it amusing that you actually advocate placing them in the general populace of our prisons. Why, to provide some interesting diversion or be a plaything for our criminals? Why on earth would we want to give those we have convicted of heinous crimes against us, any type of joy or fun and amusement?

Gunny:

seems my " plea " was all in vain as the Bush administration has decided that, despite concerns from wussies in Canada and elsewhere about the continued usefulness of Gitmo, they will keep the ' detainees' in Cuba indefintely, maybe , to quote the White House source: ' permanently '..

as for your concern that placing the boyos with a 'friend' in Cell Block D might be construed as offering a ' benefit ' to the hard core prisoner types..
then, maybe, another solution might be considered.. how ' bout using the natural skills of these chappies to live off the land and work in adverse conditions in desert and scrub mountain environments.. etc..?

draft them into the US Border Patrol and turn 'em loose along the Texas/New Mexico/Nevada/California border to take care of other unauthroized visitors...saves having to guard them, etc. and they -can work off their 'sentence ' for having the temerity to fioght the USA...

Rocketeer,you make me laugh almost as much as Coachman.....different reasons though.
First you want to put Gitmo residents in with American prisoners.Great,now we'd have sociopaths alongside Islamic fundamentalists.Not too dangerous a situation.
Next you want to put them out in the wilderness to protect Americas' borders.Riiggghhhhtttttt.
Rock,has the sun finally knocked you loopy??Have you sipped too much moonshine at your re-enactments??
Let the Muslim extremeists stay at Gitmo.
If you want to worry about people,worry about the sick, the poor,of the world.
FU*K THE TERRORISTS!

Man 'those guys' are real lucky...free transport... room and board at a sea side resort!

Clean towels for their heads.

All the korans they can flush.

Say if Allah ain't great.

The place has become a major liability and an international embarrassment. I know some of you could give a damn about the rest of the world but like it our not, it's still there.

The location has a bad smell because of the policies that have been amplified and broadcast throughout the Muslim world. This is the same world our kids are dying for in order to win hearts and minds and establish representative democracies in some of the areas that have been ruled by despots for centuries.

It's a signature of our dysfunctional foriegn policy. It's not helping us win the GWOT or TWAT as I prefer to call it.

Tribunals are what some people have been advocating but the Administration has been avoiding that also. Since they are not considered POWs, then there should be some lawful remedy instead of a life sentence without the benefit of the law. Yes, they may well be scum bags, but we, as a nation, are not and should act better then any of them.

We've recaptured or killed 10 that we know we released out of Gitmo. Compared to the hundreds we've released, and compared to our own prison system catch and release program, that's a pretty good ratio. We're not getting good intel out of these guys anymore, it is a huge black eye to the rest of the world. I don't have an answer to "where should they go, then?"-- But I think we've got to do something about it.

Maybe we should get out of Gitmo all together and leave them there. Give Fidel some of his own medicine.

Not to worry.. its all being fixed as we speak.. the US government has given an non-tendered contract to a subsidiary of Haliburton [ Dick Cheny's old stomping ground ] top build a ' permanent ' facility at GITMO.. sort of a 'Club Med Prison' with real rooms and hot and cold running water and a proper recreation facility. etc.. just like the gang boys and hardcore fellows get in the good ol' USA.. the contract is worth $ 20 million to start but the full cost is estimated to be $ 500 million over the course of the work, etc...

problem solved, crisis in the Senate averted and all is right with the world..

Good on Dubya...

No one responded about what you would do with the terrs if they were released.
Where would YOU put them?How would you solve the problem.
Would the world be happier if we released them on the Antartic?What would make the world happy??
And why do we(the USA)need to make the world happy.Their citizens aren't fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq.If they were and had a viable solution maybe we would listen.
However no one offers a solution,just the mantra "Close Gitmo"as if that would solve the GWOT problems.
Wake up folks,this is a war for the long term.Don't get caught up in short term solutions.Look at the big picture,5,10,years down the road.
Our children and grandchildren will still be facing the threat of Islamic terrorism,long after we are dust in the wind.

I have been giving this Gitmo problem some more thought and I have to reverse my answer to closing it. I do think we could clean it up some more, and nvr-btdt did put forth some things I did not look at. We can not send these people back out into the open world, we would pay dearly for turning them loose on socity again.I would say this, keep them looked up till this is over if it ever will be over.

quote:

Originally posted by nvr-btdt:
No one responded about what you would do with the terrs if they were released.
Where would YOU put them?How would you solve the problem.
Would the world be happier if we released them on the Antartic?What would make the world happy??
And why do we(the USA)need to make the world happy.Their citizens aren't fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq.If they were and had a viable solution maybe we would listen.
However no one offers a solution,just the mantra "Close Gitmo"as if that would solve the GWOT problems.
Wake up folks,this is a war for the long term.Don't get caught up in short term solutions.Look at the big picture,5,10,years down the road.
Our children and grandchildren will still be facing the threat of Islamic terrorism,long after we are dust in the wind.

I gave you an answer...Just let them go, right there in Gitmo. Let Fidel figure it out!

No, seriously, I heard a similar solution regarding Vietnam. We take all the "good" muslims and put them on a boat, then we nuke the island and take care of Fidel and the few bad guys we still have in custody all at once. Then we sink the boat.

OK, no, this time seriously. The problem is nobody thought long term to begin with. Gitmo was (supposed to be) a short term solution. Things were just moving too fast (especially in Afghanistan).

People are gonna jump on me for this one---
Make nice once again with the UN and the EU. Get them involved in the trying of these people for international terrorism (something like The Hague). Except those guys arrested for plotting stuff on US soil, we get them. Have the EC and Interpol play a part. Put these guys away over there (in an international, segregated facility). None of them will be put to death over there, some will be released, but many will do some long time to life I'm sure (we just have to approach the right allies with the right plan). Europe is happy because they're no longer marginalized, and we look good all around in playing nice with them and getting rid of Gitmo.
Is that do-able? Probably not.....We don't have evidence to convict many of these guys, just innuendo and accusations. They're probably still guilty and very bad guys, we just can't prove it. And that's kind of our fault.