Gunny mentioned this on another thread and its in the news as, first, Pres Karzai mentioned it, then western leaders [ Canada's PM, Germany's Merkel, and, now, Obama ] took up the chant.

Talk to the Taliban..

not all of them are whacko fanatics, admittedly, though they are 'fundamentalist' to the nth degree.

Some pundits are labeling this 'class' of Taliban as ' no worse than the fundamentalist evangelical Christians of the US South', etc. etc..in their' conservative' interpretations of scripture...blah, blah, blah..

If they are included and brought to understand concepts like compromise and other 'democratic ' concepts [ yeah, right ] they'll realize that working within the system is better than constantly blowing things, and themselves, up and trying to impose their restrictive views on a population that, in the majority, doesn't want them. Others worry that by allowing them into the 'process' they'll corrupt and subvert and overtake it, thus getting the very thing the rest are fighting to prevent..

On the other hand, the proponents of 'opening dialogue' point to other instances where the radical arms of terrorists/freedom fighters/insurrectionist/separatists, [ choose a label ] have been brought to heel, peacefully downgraded and otherwise subverted/conformed to peaceful means [ see Northern Ireland - back in the news again, where even the rebels are condemning the 'ultra rebels' ]

So, do we write off the Taliban nutters as a nutbar fringe that can only be 'controlled' through suppression over many years until their influence is broken down to a few disgruntled types who will never go away until they die off?
do we invite them to partake in discussions and subvert them to being nice by letting them have a say in how things turn out, but with controls so they can't take over by force ? or what?

recall the worry over the rise of Right wing Nazi-esque types in Germany a bit back and how it looked like they'd 'rise again' before sensible people calmed things.. or, now, in Israel, where the government needs the radical element, who are calling for 'loyalty tests' for non-Jews, further 'sanctions' against the Palestinians and the relegation of the West Bank/Gaza to 'protectorates' rather than full independence as 'states' because that would mean they'd have control over their own airspace, security [ i.e. an army ], international treaties with, perhaps, countries Israel might find hinky....etc. etc..

the Taliban aren't, of course, going away in Afghanistan; are a powerful, if territorially limited faction, in Pakistan, and; an influence in a number of other Muslim nations..you can't wipe em out, can't really ignore them...

so..

take them in and co-opt them hoping they don't pull the reverse or just keep whacking at them as you would pernicious weeds until you got most of the roots?

the floor is open for debate..

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TYPHOON44:
So far it seems Obamas only goal is to undo everything Bush did. Nothing more. If we are going to be so stupid as a people, then we deserve to find out what it's like to go full speed on STUPIDITY. There is a simple way to defeat our enemies yet none of these ways is being used anyhow. The man who thinks outside of the box knows what I mean. Most of these " ways " don't even require Military means. Being a SUPERPOWER as a nation has actually created the structures of our enemies. They use our GOOD for their BAD. We actually supply the time they need to piss us off.

The military seems to be in favor of some sort of talk going on, so what is the problem?

HarryP

The problem is the main leaders of the Taliban ( the original ones who still lead but can't be found ) don't want to talk unless it's about the complete destruction of the USA. Who in America one day woke up and decided that there are " LEVELS " within the Taliban? Were there " LEVELS " in The Third Riech "? I honestly think America is going down the tubes because of this " let's talk and learn to understand their culture " bullcrap. So after all of the BS these past years and the American lives which will never come back somebody suggests that WE SIT DOWN AND TALK?! Fine, let's talk! Let's go round up Vice President Joe Biden, get on a plane, go to Afghanistan and sit down on some burlap and talk with " the good version " of the Taliban. By the way have they been hand-picked by Osama Bin Laudin, because he is >>> THE LEADER <<< of the Taliban so....?
Biden says we are losing anyhow so why bother talking to the victors eh? Maybe we should surrender?

p.s. Has anybody ever wondered why it is we " Americans " have to understand every culture on this dopey planet? Why is that and why do we have to be understanding if some doof from Lybia or somewhere else moves to America? Get in line pal!

Understanding culture would have helped us with the mess in Iraq. Maybe it is not a black and white world as you seem to think.

Remember, talk is cheap.

It seems to me that we have gotten away from the original mission if A-stan- kill UBL and as many other Al-Qaeda as we can, as well as those who supported them. Why do we feel the need to change the system of government?

HarryP

If anything I see grey more than most. I get the feeling you are egging me on with this " lets talk to The Taliban " stuff. They were listed as a terrorist group by the FBI and CIA long before they attacked America on 9/11. Has that status been lifted?

- " reconciliation with the Taliban is worth exploring " - Joe Biden.

Perhaps you should join in and go along for the ride? Will there be cake and ice cream? But wait! Why even talk to the Taliban? What for? Why not just split in the middle of the night? Wouldn't the talks just be about us leaving anyhow?

As for cultures, what is it about Iraq we didn't understand? Maybe Iraq should understand our culture considering they have been around for thousands of years right? Before we got to Iraq it was being run by full grown adults who know exactly whats going on. Saddam has shown us what his culture is all about. We watched him invade Iran,kill Kurds, invade Kuwait and murder thousands. I could go on for miles with this stuff HarryP.

And now for a dash of reality :

Jihad Recruiting Effort May Explain Missing Somalis in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area. Hmmm...why that's in your neck of the woods! Perhaps Biden should should go there first considering?

How is it that we talked to the Germans and Japanese before they surrendered? Were they all guilty or not?

I don't think that I have said anything glib here so I am not egging you on.

HarryP

Are you saying we talked to Germany and Japan before they surrendered? If that is the case how so, and with who? There was no talking about anything with the Axis Powers. They attacked us and declared war upon us ( The Allies ). We made it very well known that no surrender except an unconditional surrender would be accepted. Germany more or less fought until all of Europe and Germany was in complete ruins. If not for the atom bomb Japan was more than ready to fight for every inch of their soil. Bin Lauden was on CNN swearing to God that he will destroy America one way or another. Since then he has beamed in once a year ( groundhog day? ) to remind us that he hates our gutz and can't wait until we are all dead. He created the Taliban so....

Here is a front row seat on the fellas Joe Biden thinks we should talk too :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...yr4c&feature=related

I know some of you don't watch these little YouTube flicks. Then again it might be the very reason those who are " like-minded " with Joe tend to support such nonsense.

Perhaps we should open our dialogue in the same manner as they did? Lets gather round and have another look at their first opening statement on 9/11 again :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...yr4c&feature=related

Oh yeah, that really worked for them.

OH, I am sorry, I thought you might want to discuss this topic and not just tout your ideas. Yes we did talk before the war was over - that is history.

We need to factor in some things when making attempts to charactorize or compare the war on terror with previous large scale wars. Those wars were declared against countries and were fought with armies. Two distinct sides. Global War on Terrorism is not like any war ever fought before in history. There are no clearly defined borders or uniformed enemy. This war isn't against any one race or ethnic group. Geez the only way we can readily identify specific persons or groups that we are at war with, is by their own observed actions at any given time.

HarryP

You should be sorry for consistently concluding I am touting my ideas. I suspect those 2 reality links I left infuriate you and you would rather focus on Joe Bidens " we are losing the war " nonsense. Like I wrote earlier, why don't you go over to Afghanistan and sit on some burlap with people who supposedly represent UBL and bring our boys home? Enemies are what in your mind? Are they one day future buddies in your mind or something? This is a religious war and it's going nowhere you know why? Because it NEVER HAS. Get it through your head one day. I am the MAJORITY of Americans who could care less about The Taliban. Snoop around the web if you must, but eventually it'll dawn on you that you are the minority on that way of thinking.

thegunny

It is defined by Religion. No mater what skin tone somebody is our forces seem to reflect the biggest variety. As for the 2 countries we now occupy? Seems to me there must be a reason as to why are where we are. We sure as Hell didn't go there to seek out a peace treaty.

quote:

It is defined by Religion.

Wow. That's the most ignorant thing I've heard in a while. The Marine MSgt I work with, a practicing Sunni from Lebanon, might argue with you.....

I could tick off 30-40 of my friends serving in the military as well. And, the violence in Iraq is decreasing, I'm sure the Iraqi people have nothing to do with that either (oh, the Iraqi people, at least the majority of them, are Muslims as well. You know, the same majority we're supposed to be protecting there).

patoloco

Wow yourself. Odd that my best friend is a Navy Seal and Jewish. Should I march in a circle and beat a drum for having a Jewish pal too?

If you want I will toss up what 9/11 was about and what everybody from the President on down defined it as? Extreme something...hmmm...it's on the tip of my tongue. It's a religious war as defined by : THE ENEMY PATOLOCO! I guess I could be wrong and maybe we should let all of those Catholics out of Gitmo that we keep catching in Afghanistan. By the way why did President George Bush invade Iraq? I believe it was because America was afraid of Saddams supposed WMD's getting into the hands of those " Catholic Terrorists " who live in Afghanistan. I have just as many friends who are Islamic as you do. In my way of thinking I'm not in first or second place when it comes to religion, and I don't need to pull out a chart of who my buddies are and what they believe in either. This war has been defined by every brainiac in America as : The War Against Terror. I guess this is why we are in Ireland right now keeping the peace.

1) http://www.globalincidentmap.com/map.php

2) # Regimes in the Muslim world that are friendly to the U.S. continue to be threatened by Islamist militants. At the same time, U.S. support for some authoritarian regimes in the Muslim world provokes resentment over the suppression of democracy and human rights, creating hostility that can be exploited by terrorist groups for recruitment.
# To address these continuing problems, the next phase of a successful effort against global terrorism should differ in part from the approach of the two years following 9/11. It should augment intelligence and military means with a better strategy for countering militant Islamist ideology.
# The focus must be on long-term and deep-seated issues, including democratization, economic growth, and educational reform in the Muslim world. The development of more open societies and increased prosperity are key goals.

Those darn Catholics!

I guess I'm the only idiot here :


President Bush :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMiqEUBux3o

Bin Laden :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...szqQ&feature=related