I agree to a large extent with ya there, Thud; when we train those who weren't raised with the same values, the results can be unpredictable, as has happened in the past. While most of the time it is successful, there have been some notable exceptions that have really given the US a black eye, at least in those locales.

How many times has it worked though and we have never heard about it??

If the whole Iraq thing works than I don't see an threat developing out of it. But if it doesn't and we train these folks to do hits than its a different story.

THUD,
We've done it in the past and it worked. However, I think we should be very careful this time and limit the education or training to the basics so it won't come back to haunt us again. The press is also a NO-NO as you stated. Seems we can't do anything Militarily anymore without some reporter taking pictures or making a big editorial out of it. MIKEY!

Yupp Mikey, we are an open society. But like somebody said back in the 60's "Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out".

Some things, the world just don't need to know.

Where'd you get them slammin' smileys?

I imagine that we've been doing something like that from the beginning. Recall that the President warned us that some things in this war would never be heard.

Here's the problem, though. As someone mentioned, the human conscience is a funny thing and I've known people personally who did things they thought was right at the time, but later had second thoughts which destroyed them. Secrecy cannot be maintained forever and when stories about indiscriminate killings or the murder of whole families comes out, which it will, it will ruin what little credibility we have left.

Plus, note what happened during the Phoenix program in Vietnam. It became a very effective effort to root out the VC infrastructure and cripple the enemy. But, when the story came out, the public was outraged and there was the additional problem of our teams working off bad intelligence. Human nature being what it is, some of our "sources" began fingering political rivals and personal enemies instead of the VC and our guys had no way of knowing.

The POTENTIAL of serious abuse and a public relatons disaster is so great that I'm not sure it's a good idea unless we're very, very, very sure of who we're going after. If we're doing it, it needs to be strictly controlled and have some measure of oversight or it could blow up in our faces.

That may not seem like much of a problem to some, but this war (and all wars) are dependant upon public support at home and if we start doing things in the name of the public which they're uncomfortable with, we'll stumble. Plus, there can NEVER be an end to terrorism until the people whom the terrorists live among turn against them and our credibility is key to that happening.

I agree w/ you Kit in your last paragraph. But honostly does half the public know whats good for war, and know whats best? NO they don't. So should we worry what some of the left activists think? IMO no we shouldn't. It is a touchy situation though, but something that IMO can't be swayed by disbelief from civies, or public organizations.

I would like to add to what you said though when I say that it is kinda like that expression, that its not illegal until your caught. In this case the public doesn't know that it benifits them until they find out, and then some throw a hissy fit. But they weren't bitching when they were safe!!

Kit, the problem with your point is, there have been no "indiscriminate killings" or "murder of whole families" by our side.
Note, I didnt say there werent any innocent bystanders killed. Collateral damage as its called is an unfortunate but unavoidable part of war. And no country or coalition in the history of warfare went farther out of its way, or took more risks to avoid collateral damage than the US did during the invasion.

"I imagine that we've been doing something like that from the beginning"
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Surley not

quote:

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Originally posted by Joe:
I agree w/ you Kit in your last paragraph. But honostly does half the public know whats good for war, and know whats best? NO they don't. So should we worry what some of the left activists think? IMO no we shouldn't. It is a touchy situation though, but something that IMO can't be swayed by disbelief from civies, or public organizations.

I would like to add to what you said though when I say that it is kinda like that expression, that its not illegal until your caught. In this case the public doesn't know that it benifits them until they find out, and then some throw a hissy fit. But they weren't bitching when they were safe!!

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RE: We can't afford to ignore the leftists. They're still American's and their opinions have the same validity as anyone elses.

Plus, recall that that Johnson administration tried to ignore them too, back in the sixties, until it was too late. The same can happen now and for the same reasons: The average American isn't involved in the war and they've been allowed to forget what started it. That's a huge mistake.

quote:

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Originally posted by USMC 7051 8083:
Kit, the problem with your point is, there have been no "indiscriminate killings" or "murder of whole families" by our side.
Note, I didnt say there werent any innocent bystanders killed. Collateral damage as its called is an unfortunate but unavoidable part of war. And no country or coalition in the history of warfare went farther out of its way, or took more risks to avoid collateral damage than the US did during the invasion.

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RE: I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that there has been. I should have said it will cause problems IF it's being done and the public finds out, which they would eventually.

Keeni Meeni:

The CRW Wing of the SAS can trace its roots to the SAS involvement in Yemen from 1964 to 67, specifically the "Keeni-Meeni"units formed by Major Peter de la Billiere. "Keeni Meeni" is a Swahili phrase which describes a snake moving stealthily through the grass. Arab guerrillas were extremely adept at CQB in the crowded streets of Aden City. They were virtually indistinguishable from the local population and could escape easily after assassinating British politicians, soldiers, civilians and even local policemen. The Keeni Meeni units were formed to combat this. The operators would disguise themselves as locals and carry Browning High Power pistols. They would then roam the streets and ambush the Arab death squads - dark skinned Fijian operators were specially suited to this role. These operations required excellent reaction times and alertness.

Maybe its time we revisited this type of action and operation.

That's one of our problems though Mike. How do we blend in? I guess makeup could be used along with a crash course in language and culture but how long would it take to get some people who can be effective?

If I'm current you guys have more human assets than we do. So maybe you guys should be the ones doing it since you've been fighting tangos a lot longer than we have. Just my dos centavos.

quote:

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Originally posted by Thud357l:
That's one of our problems though Mike. How do we blend in? I guess makeup could be used along with a crash course in language and culture but how long would it take to get some people who can be effective?

If I'm current you guys have more human assets than we do. So maybe you guys should be the ones doing it since you've been fighting tangos a lot longer than we have. Just my dos centavos.

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Spot on, its time we used the Brit SF guys more actively, and cross trained with US SF.

a view from israel...just though you would like to know what israel is doing. Not using mercs but close. Quite a few of the new immigrants from the old USSR were experienced snipers from chechniya. And a good sniper is hard to find. They have their own little unit, these guys go out into gaza, turn off the radio and dont come back until they have a "kill".

Kiteria...The "Phoenix" program was not a secret program. The announcement was publicly given, IN Saigon, in front of the Press...

Yogi

USMC numbers.... you ever seen dead kids? I am constantly amazed how blood thirsty rear-area people are. This ain't football, doofus. I didn't kill kids, nobody in my plt. did either. Don't watch so many war movies,or better still get your azz in combat. We may not be perfect but we're not Nazis.

Kit. . .that is a good point, and I really hadn't thought much about what has happened in our past regarding the "counterculture." But when I refer to "leftist" I am talking predominately about that "counterculture(CC)" and not necessarily midline democrats. I don't think the CC is near as strong as it was in the 60s, and frankly they don't carry much clout anymore, and I think the recent elections proved that. Sorry I should have clarified that in my first statement.

STARLIN. . . what exactly are you accusing USMC of???

And yes I agree we should let the Brits play more of an active role in this post war Iraq building. They have been doing the occupation peace building thing since the beginning of their world wide empire, and have much more experiance than we do. Look at how Basra turned out. . . there was a very short conflict there, and it was immediately sorted out. Right now I think it is the most stable large city in Iraq. Am I wrong?

Amvet is onto something here which is major.

There is such a huge cultural difference between our Nation and those which are considered to be our adversaries that the cultural issue itself is perhaps the biggest problem.

What if we work on that before we send in the troops instead of afterwards?

How do we work on it though. . .before the fact. It would have been tough to march in there before the war and try to sort that out. IMO. Unless we send Sean Penn over there.
Its a good point AF. . . what are your ideas on how to do it.