If Islam happened to " take over ", then I suspect there would be a new for of sleeper cells from another religion.

HarryP, If factions within Irish society deliberately targeted and killed Americans for any reason let alone because the US was allied with the UK, I have not the slightest doubt that the Irish government and an overwhelming majority of its citizens would take firm, verifiable and decisive action against those responsible for such actions. The Irish Americans in this country would support the hunting and the bringing to justice those in Irish society that were responsible. We cannot say the same with respect to accountability by the Middle Eastern nations.

It is absolutely amazing to me that anyone can seriously argue that there is a moral equivalence between the Islamofascists and the IRA. Are you suggesting that simply because “death is death,” it follows that a US marine who kills civilians while targeting insurgents in Iraq or Al-Quida should be judged the same way?? Do you believe that the US pilots who fire-stormed Dresden and Hamburg during WWII were essentially the same as the Nazis?? Should the US and its military apologize and be held accountable for the bombings of Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki?? No, HarryP, death is not death -- as you suggest -- if it undertaken as a means to defend a nation against the kinds of fascists that we see today in the Middle East and like we saw during WWII. Our marines (everyone of them heroes in my book) have a sacred obligation to make sure that the Islamofascists who are trying to kill them and us be made to see their Allah as rapidly and as painfully as possible.

The bottom line is that if there is one fella ( me ) who won't worship a supposed God that came to life 600 years ago then they are screwed. I will not wear a strange hat...and that is that.

quote:

The bottom line is that if there is one fella ( me ) who won't worship a supposed God that came to life 600 years ago then they are screwed. I will not wear a strange hat...and that is that.

????? Uh......In case anyone is confused--

Wrong. Only one faith formed this nation and the God Jamestown had came with a son Christ. I'm not going to aurgue about this because these are facts. So too is the fact that Christians did not fly planes into the WTT on 9/11. Neither did those of the Jewish faith. Decade dashing to reason why we were attacked is null and void.

No arguing with those "facts".....no, not going to. Just the fact that Islam's "God was created 600 years ago". The God talked of in the Old Testament is the same one that's in the Koran and the Torah. Same God. One God. Different beliefs and faiths.

Anton: It is the method of death of which I spoke. Do not put the "crazy" on my comments. Please do not insult me by implying such things, it does not serve the discussion and avoids the issue at hand. Nice skipping of the relevant facts, though.

HarryP, when you said on Oct. 25th that “death is death, regardless of the method” I did not call you crazy for saying this. That is your word, not mine. But I was nevertheless entitled to conclude from what you say that you believed some kind of a moral equivalence exists between the death caused by an Islamofascists and the death caused by our armed forces in the defense of our country. In response, you now say “It is the method of death of which I spoke.” I do not know what you mean when you say this. So please allow me to rephrase my question which I hope you will provide an answer and help claify: are you saying that the “method” that Col. Doolittle used to attack Japan by bombing Tokyo was wrong or misguided because civilians were also killed?? Are you saying that the “method” the US used to end its war with Germany was wrong or misguided because the US bombed Berlin?

These questions I ask do not avoid the issue as you suggest. The topic of the tread is “Islam triumphant” I say that ANY effort to humanize or justify the Islamofascists’ attitudes, beliefs and conduct by making comparisons to the deaths that have occurred in non-Islam based societies is a step closer to making Islam triumphant.

There is absolutely, positively, without doubt NO comparison that can be made between deaths that occur in the rest of the world versus the deaths caused by the Islamofascists. Period. The Islamofasicts are the Nazis of our times and are to be dealt with in the same manner that the Allied Powers hunted and killed Nazis during WWII. We need more Pattons, not Neville Chamberlains in dealing with these modern day fascists. That is the only way we can be assured that Islam never becomes triumphant.

Even as I write this, the news media reports that a man on a bicycle blew himself up in order to kill 29 police recruits in Iraq. There can be no reasoning or appeasing these fascists other than to make sure that they get to see their Allah quickly and hopefully by a well place shot between the eyes by one of our marines.

Anton:

You have a habit of misunderstanding or taking things out of context and then claiming innocence all the while. It is not worth discussing things with a shifting argument. I am not buying the act and if it is not an act then you have a problem with dealing with conflicting opinions. Believe me when I say that you need to check your ego at the door and try to understand what people are saying if you want them to keep saying things to you. As for me – this is my last comment on this subject.

HarryP, I am responding to what you have written. Wherever possible, I have tried to quote you in the process. If I am misunderstanding you, I have asked you to clarify what it is you are saying.

It was you (not me) who said "Death is death" which, in the context of your post, I rightfully took to mean that we should temper our criticism of the Islamic Radicals who have a significant and loud presence in the Middle Eastern nations since the killing of civilians also occurs in non-Islamic based countries. I said to you that it was not fair or correct to make such a comparison under any circumstance. How you can say that somehow I have engaged in "a shifting argument" is a bit baffling to me.

Unfortunately, because you have not clarified your position, despite my several requests, I will never really know what you have been trying to say. You leave me no choice but to take literally the words you have written.

You need to improve your reading comprehension Anton. My comments are to the point and on subject. Amy clarifications by me seem to engender more outlandish misinterpretations on your part to the point where I feel you are being obtuse as a matter of making a point, though, what it might be is beyond me.

And, as I so clearly stated, I do not support terrorists of any ilk so do not try to attribute that thought to me.

I never thought for one second that you support terrorist and I accept on face value your telling me that you do not.

It may be that you do not understand (or accept) what I have said in this forum: I reject out of hand any suggestion, intended or otherwise, that there is some kind of equivalence between the Islamic Radicals who -- by all accounts -- occupy the same position in many of the Middle Eastern countries as the Nazi Party did with respect to Germany in the early 1930s. Millions of innocent people died in Europe alone because our grandparents underestimated and were complacent in recognizing the true threat caused by these fascists. This does not mean that our grandparents "supported" the Nazi Party or its values during those consequential times -- but they lived to see the horror caused by their understandable lack of foresight.

Given the lessons of history derived from those times, we cannot commit the same error by failing to recognize the Islamic Radicals as fascists re-incarnate or by regarding them as not too different from and somehow comparable to other factions found in other countries. By doing that, we give these fascists a sense of legitimacy and tacit support that only serves to embolden them.

It was for these reasons I said that it is not fair or correct to justify or to explain away the killings being performed at the hands of the Islamic Radicals on the premise that "death is death." If that is what you intended to say, then say so. If you do not find any equivalence with these Islamofascists, then say that. But please do not tell me that I was somehow required to know what you meant.

May I respectfully suggest that, if you really do believe in comparability on a "death is death" theory, you rethink your position and if you do not want to do that for me consider doing it out of respect for our grandparents who realized too late the consequences of such a view.

I stick with my theory of obtuse. You cannot disregard the remainder of my comment on the 25th and choose your own meaning of what I said. I find your lack of understanding baffling and beyond what is normal in a continued conversation.

Is this a contest to you? Your comments smack of a willingness to win regardless of the logic of your arguments.

Also, my father (and several other relatives) was in World War II and I doubt if he knew anything about the true Nazi treatment of the Jews – few people did. My grandparents only got their news from the papers at the time and there was not much in them about the crimes of the bad guys of World War II.

You say: “I stick with my theory of obtuse. You cannot disregard the remainder of my comment on the 25th and choose your own meaning of what I said”

Oh really?? Well let’s see what you said on the 25th: “I wonder what all those bombs in London were about. Also, death is death, regardless of the method. That is a cultural difference. Was it all right for the Irish to kill the English (with monetary support from Americans)? Would they be the same if they had also killed Americans? Also, the fascists were leaders of nations, not pockets of terrorists, there is no comparison with their status in the world, though, and both are contemptible.”

A fair, honest, and plain reading of what you wrote that day is that the beheadings and suicide bombings of innocent civilians that is happening all too frequently by the hands of the Islamofascists may be somehow explained, justified or made more palatable (HarryP, you can choose which verb, it does not matter to me) on the notion that deaths also occur in other parts of the world (after all, according to you “death is death’) and in that regard, I assume your reference to the Irish was merely intended to be illustrative and not that meant to say that only the Irish kill people.

From what you wrote, the following conclusion is inescapable: you believe some kind of a meaningful, moral equivalence exists between deaths caused by Islamofascists as compared to deaths caused by others.

Prior to 911, I would have ignored that kind of thinking as inconsequential and entirely academic. 911 has caused me to think differently because what we discovered on that day is that groups with violent agendas now have the wherewithal to manifest their violence globally and on a massive scale. ONLY the Islamofascists have stood out as an organization that is not merely content with killing people in their own societies but also to kill Americans because we allow our daughters to go to law school and to sit in sports arenas along side men. Contrary to what you wrote (and apparently believe), there is no equivalence between the killings that have occurred to date all around the world with the killings performed by the Islomofascists when you consider the systemic, pervasive killings that have been undertaken by their hands during these past few decades. Seeing such an equivalence only serves to downplay the unique threat poised by the Islamofasicts to the security of the rest of the free world, especially the United States. Unlike the era of the early 1030s when fascism was beginning to take hold in Germany, Italy and Japan, the Islamofascists today have the ability to assert their agenda of murder and terror globally. At least during the 1930s, the world could sit back and wait for Hitler to invade Poland before it decided to change its approach from appeasement and rational dialogue to that of military confrontation with a fascist dictator. By equating the deaths caused by the Islamofasicts to the deaths that have occurred elsewhere in the world, the Islamofascists are given more “breathing room” to grow and to strengthen their base and then to take over weak, susceptible governments that are the norm in the Middle East and then use the resources of that nation to wage their war of religious fascism on a worldwide basis, particularly against the United States. HarryP, we do not have the luxury of rationalizing the Islamofascists MO, like Neville Chamberlain tried to do when he thought that Hitler would just go away if he was simply given Checlosvokia on a platter. It is for these reasons that I say that any effort to find an equivalence by comparing their killings to the localized non-Islamofascists based killings (what has happened in Ireland being just one example), only serves to give aid and comfort to these fascists.– the same way that Chamberlain gave aid and comfort to Hitler in 1938 and which inspired Hitler to persuade his generals that the Allied powers were too week, divided and apathetic to stop the spread of fascism throughout the globe.

The fact that your father did not know that jews were being systematically killed by the Nazis misses my point. (I will not call you obtuse for doing that). Your father witnessed first hand (by seeing his colleagues die in the battlefield) the results of appeasement and apathy that was a characteristics of HIS generation during the 1930s. By the time your father realized the mortal danger to him and his countermen, it was too late. We cannot allow that same kind of mistake to occur again by viewing the Islamofasicts of today with the same lens.

Finally HarryP, it is uncalled for and inappropriate for you to launch personal attacks against me because I have questioned or have failed to understand what you wrote on the 25th. There is no contest between you and me. This is supposed to be a forum where ideas are exchanged and discussed and argued and hopefully with the view that any one reading them (including myself) learns and appreciates the views of others. And what better place to do that than here, a forum created by and for those who appreciate the service and sacrifice of our armed forces. Like in your father’s case, it is our military who will suffer by the mistakes made by a society which fails to learn the lessons of history.

Anton, I have to disagree with using Hitler and WWII as points to argue the current Global War on Terror. Next thing will be Vietnam. Or Grenada, and even Panama.

We are fighting what equates to virtually an invisible enemy here.

quote:

Originally posted by Anton:
Those who ignore the lessons of history -- particularly the circumstances under which Germany, Italy and Japan's government's were taken over by fascists -- and then fail or refuse to recognize the threat poised by similar radical factions within the Islamic culture are the ones who do not have an open mind.

That would be funny if it was not the root of the problem in these United States of America. Recognize it? Recognize it within the Islamic culture? You cannot even recognize in your own country and dare to speak of another? You probably think the United States is a democracy.

quote:

Originally posted by TYPHOON44:
Wrong. Only one faith formed this nation and the God Jamestown had came with a son Christ. I'm not going to aurgue about this because these are facts. So too is the fact that Christians did not fly planes into the WTT on 9/11. Neither did those of the Jewish faith. Decade dashing to reason why we were attacked is null and void.

I take it you believe a bunch (19)of fanatics sent by a man in a cave not only flew into the buidings but brought them down with jet fuel, including WTC Building Seven which was not hit by a plane. If you are going to fight and die in a war at least know what or for whom you are going die.

quote:

it is our military who will suffer by the mistakes made by a society which fails to learn the lessons of history.

the reverse could be said too...it is society that pays for the mistakes of the military.

Bloody Hell!

what is it with this site of late that we're attracting all manner of nutjobs and whackos..??

miracle:

Don't you dare start posting some sh*t about the WTC being a black ops conspiracy job done by Bush or his' minions' or, at least, aquiesced to by him and the ' power elite' to force American foreign policy into interfering in the Middle East to secure oil futures to power USA Hegemony round the world.. or other such claptrap tripe..

And you better not be one of those harbouring the 'belief' that 450 tons of strategically placed explosives brought down the buildings while we all stared at holographic projections of the jet planes hitting the buildings...

the West is reaping the consequences of short term thinking.. we supported and goaded the Islamic fundamentalist factions into becoming militant and a cohesive force in order to thwart Soviet imperial ambitionms [ Afghanistan ] and when they succeeded we had no policy in place to disarm and re-motivate those ' freedom fighters' but left them to fend for themselves, thus enabling the Taliban revolution and the subsequent ' aftershocks'..

Western support for bad boys in fear of even badder boys is the very reason we have the situation in Pakistan today[ everyone knew Musharref was an insecure and corrupt ' dictator ' in anti-terrorist ' clothing ], the reason Iran fell apart in the 70's, the reason Saddam was such a headache and the reason Dubya and Co is gnashing its teeth over Chavez and his ilk..

I suggest you and Anton read more history books instead of spouting off internet drivel you downloaded from some suspect website..

As to the underpinnings of Islam.. while the faith believes in the same God as Jews and Christians - we are all children of Abraham - it has yet to face a significant schism/reformation which both Judaism and Christianity suffered through before becoming' enlightened'..that change we are witnessing happening today [ it goes beyond the ' territoriality ' of Sunni, Shi'ite, Wahabi, Sufi, Ismaili, etc. factions ]..we should be encouraging this debate/discussion not condemning all Muslims for ' tolerating ' a relatively small radical element within the faith.

What we are seeing is the popular [ in the traditional sense ] uprising of people against artificial constructs of countries created by Imperialism following WWI and II and fear against instability in these regions as the dust gets shaken out... We encourage and support Palestinian 'statehood' but deny the Kurds [ who have a far more legitimate claim to nation ] because the Palestinians can be 'contained' while the Kurds would carve off parts of Iraq, Syria, Turkey causing those countries to have pains in recovering from cheap labour, revenue and other issues too big to control without massive co-operation and restraint of old animosities..

The West is all for 'free and democratic' unless it will cause economic loss and stoppage of oil, hence the propping up of Saudi Arabia and others despite their lack of democracy and unwilling to pay the full price to ' educate and fix' as evidenced with the screw up that is Haiti [ remember that? ]

From what I've read so far Anton needs more training in ' foreign relations' and miracle just needs a whack upside the head to clear the conspiraloon issues..

[ Rocketeer grumbles and goes back to his beer breakfast muttering ' gawddamn kids today.. no book learnin among the bunch - too much iPod downloads are warping their brains' ...mumble, grumble..I blame the internet.. its all Britney this and Paris that...damn computers killed the porn industry.. don't get me started on that .. buuuuurp!!!! ]

Anton - obtuse - what else could I call it? Also, I was in the military and in Vietnam so do not lecture me about the military because you do not have that right as far as I am concerned.