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Picture of Weatherman1956
Location: On the Beach.
Registered: 08 March 2005
Posts: 910
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GITMO is hell (for U.S. Guards)

http://www.insightmag.com/Media/MediaManager/Guantanamo.htm


quote:
Al Qaeda might be on the run in Afghanistan, but Osama bin Laden's agents are in the driver's seat at the U.S. military prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Officers tell of daily attacks by al Qaeda inmates against U.S. military personnel, who are ordered not to respond. The officers have also been ordered to fulfill the religious, cultural and even entertainment needs of the inmates, including providing Arabic translations of Harry Potter.

"I have never once since I've been down here ever heard of a detainee being abused, but I've seen the soldiers and sailors get abused," Staff Sgt. Thomas Garcia said. "[Detainees] throw some of the most unmentionable cocktails. They urinate on [the guards]. They spit. They call them names."

On Dec. 7, the U.S. military transferred the first group of al Qaeda detainees to a new $37 million 178-cell maximum-security prison designed to prevent attacks on guards. The facility has been reserved for prisoners deemed by the military to be the least compliant.

"As a commander, I don't like my folks being in danger every day," U.S. Navy Cmdr. Kris Winter said.

Guards have been routinely pelted with feces by inmates and face physical attacks from al Qaeda detainees. In May, al Qaeda detainees organized an ambush to stop a search of cells for contraband medication following two suicide attempts. Prison authorities have responded by providing inmates with a huge Arabic library, a modern hospital, sporting facilities and satellite television. Officials said Harry Potter in Arabic was one of the most popular books in Camp Delta.

Sgt. Garcia of the Maryland Army National Guard's 2nd Battalion, 110th Field Artillery, said guards maintain a professional attitude in the face of provocations by al Qaeda inmates. He said the al Qaeda operatives then send messages that they were being tortured. The Pentagon has been allowing guards at Guantanamo to discuss their work in an effort to combat the image of Camp Delta, which has been visited by 1,000 journalists. Officials said independent investigations have not confirmed allegations of misconduct and often Guantanamo has been confused with Camp X-Ray, which was open for four months in 2002.

"There's always the misconception that we're somehow beating these detainees and doing heinous things to them, and that is simply not the case," said Navy Rear Adm. Harry Harris Jr., commander of JTF-GTMO.

Much of the allegations about Guantanamo have been spread by human rights activists. Aryeh Neier, president of the New York-based Open Society Institute and former executive director of Human Rights Watch, termed Guantanamo "one of America's worst violations."

A U.S. sailor and block guard, who could not be identified for security reasons, said prison staff members are ordered to fill a range of dietary requests that seek to adapt to the religion and culture of the inmates.

"If a guy's salad isn't right, I'll make a phone call to try and get him the correct salad," said the 28-year-old guard, who is also a member of a task force.

The block guard recalled being attacked by a "cocktail" of feces, semen, blood and urine thrown by an inmate. He said guards are ordered to walk away.

"It's humiliating," the guard said. "A guy throws feces on you, and you've got to turn right back around and walk down a block that might have 40 people on it. They're making their little comments, and you go home and you change and you come back to work. Take a shower. Go to medical, get your screening."

Officials said al Qaeda inmates have attacked American guards on a daily basis. During the 12-month period that ended in August 2006, authorities reported 3,232 incidents of detainee misconduct. They included 432 assaults with bodily fluids, 227 physical assaults and 99 efforts to incite a disturbance or riot.

"This is serious stuff," Adm. Harris said. "And yet the guard force and the intelligence people maintain a remarkable degree of restraint and equilibrium. The young Americans that work here are doing a spectacular job in a dangerous place."

Officials said most guards are not allowed to handle Korans or other religious and cultural items for the inmates. The Korans, prayer beads and Islamic rugs are stored in a 300-foot long building similar to a small aircraft hangar.

Al Qaeda inmates have been taught to lie about Camp Delta and claim torture. Officials cited a terrorist training manual known as the Manchester Document and seized by British authorities in 2000. The manual directs al Qaeda operatives to make false claims of torture and mistreatment. More than 340 people have been released from Camp Delta.

“They're out there walking around spewing forth all manner of lies and evil things and distortions, but the fact is that they're released," Adm. Harris said.


my salad's ok...


Wink


Hafa Adai!
Picture of Ronnec
Registered: 15 November 2006
Posts: 72
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The problem is that people- not always terrorists- are detained there without any guaranteed basic humans rights. There is documented events of "torture" that has taken place in G.

The Bush administration vies for devalueing human rights provided for prisoners of war and in the court of law.


“Whether it be by divine intervention or natural instinct, one thing is certain- Harmony with the universe and those around you is the one known truth.”- John Mapehk Tosher
Picture of patoloco
Location: Arizona
Registered: 08 May 2005
Posts: 1553
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Ah, here we go again. Why is "torture" in quotes? What do you define as torture? And what exactly are "basic human rights"?
Many people throw these terms around without defining them....

Most of them, a great majority of them were (and ALL of them right now ARE) terrorists being held in Gitmo. As far as I'm concerned they have their basic human rights. They are relatively free of bruises, no extra holes, all still have their heads, and not a burn on them. More than they would do for us.
Picture of Ronnec
Registered: 15 November 2006
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I used "torture" specifically in quotes because I know it has multiple degrees of definition, so I made it apply to the recent accusations- whether they are sound or not. That's why I used the quotation marks. Maybe I shoulda just said that, lol...

"basic human rights" are things that we value like punishment fits the crime, innocent until proven guilty, honorable war tactics, right a fair trial, et cetera. All those things are denied to the detainees.

From LINK:

The Marines have built their proud reputation on fighting for freedoms like the one that allows me to do my job, a job that in some cases may appear to discredit them. But both the leaders and the grunts in the field like you understand that if you lower your standards, if you accept less, than less is what you'll become.

There are people in our own country that would weaken your institution and our nation –by telling you it's okay to betray our guiding principles by not making the tough decisions, by letting difficult circumstances turns us into victims or worse…villains.

I interviewed your Commanding Officer, Lieutenant Colonel Willy Buhl, before the battle for Falluja began. He said something very powerful at the time-something that now seems prophetic. It was this:

"We're the good guys. We are Americans. We are fighting a gentleman's war here -- because we don't behead people, we don't come down to the same level of the people we're combating. That's a very difficult thing for a young 18-year-old Marine who's been trained to locate, close with and destroy the enemy with fire and close combat. That's a very difficult thing for a 42-year-old lieutenant colonel with 23 years experience in the service who was trained to do the same thing once upon a time, and who now has a thousand-plus men to lead, guide, coach, mentor -- and ensure we remain the good guys and keep the moral high ground."


---------------
Then again, that could be taken out of context because they weren't referring to G. Meh.


“Whether it be by divine intervention or natural instinct, one thing is certain- Harmony with the universe and those around you is the one known truth.”- John Mapehk Tosher
Picture of thegunny
Registered: 24 January 2005
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Hmmmm, should we relocate them to the US from Gitmo? How about we put the camp in your town and transport all of these folks there so you can help insure by standing outside the fence that they are afforded all of your version of basic human rights?


SEMPER FI
The Gunny

PROUD TO BE AN INFIDEL

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don’t.

“The Meek shall inherit the earth….after I’m through with it.”

Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Picture of Ronnec
Registered: 15 November 2006
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Humans have inalienable rights. No matter where they are, they have them.

Whereever the detention center is, the policies should reflect our constitution and humanitarian laws. It does not. Neocons are trying to change the clauses of rights and enact new laws to take away rights. When was that ever a priority of this nation or its administrations until now?


“Whether it be by divine intervention or natural instinct, one thing is certain- Harmony with the universe and those around you is the one known truth.”- John Mapehk Tosher
Picture of SULLY1
Location: South Western Colorado
Registered: 24 November 2005
Posts: 1126
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Ronnec- well at least we know where your post are going all of you far left all have one thing in common the word Neocon you all use the 1st Admenment as a crutch.You all support ACLU and these Human Rights groups you ignore all the rest of the Constitution and everyone else's rights as long as it fits your purpose.
Picture of Ronnec
Registered: 15 November 2006
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quote:
Originally posted by SULLY1:
Ronnec- well at least we know where your post are going all of you far left all have one thing in common the word Neocon you all use the 1st Admenment as a crutch.You all support ACLU and these Human Rights groups you ignore all the rest of the Constitution and everyone else's rights as long as it fits your purpose.

Shit, I hate being the liberal out to steal your children. I can't sleep at night.

That's right. I'm out to undermine the longest-living constitution for our type of government. One that's stood the test of time and my adolescence.

Neoconservatives exist. It's a political group. They are not "Reagan Republicans". Denying that IS willfull ignorance.

Do I really need to define what a Neocon is? I'm not out to demonize any political party. I will bash their policies though.

I have news for you. I am exactly center. I am fiscally conservative (to an extent) but socially liberal. Even pinko democrats are barely left of center. Right in our country is FAR right, and far right...well, Even righter-er.

The political spectrum is more 3-dimensional anyway.

I really do not want to debate partisan politics. I don't demonize anyone. If you want to take your best shot at the Democratic party in America then, by all means, be my guest. I shall respond.

I'll just say, that Neoconservatism- as it is used now, is a slur at those who support G.W.Bush in many topics not considered traditional for Reagan Republicans.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Ronnec,


“Whether it be by divine intervention or natural instinct, one thing is certain- Harmony with the universe and those around you is the one known truth.”- John Mapehk Tosher
Picture of Ronnec
Registered: 15 November 2006
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Yeah, the DoI, which values are exemplified further in our founding documents.

I had to memorize that in 8th grade... Sadly, I have forgotten it...


“Whether it be by divine intervention or natural instinct, one thing is certain- Harmony with the universe and those around you is the one known truth.”- John Mapehk Tosher
Picture of SULLY1
Location: South Western Colorado
Registered: 24 November 2005
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Ronnec-Young Jackass you are not bright enought or smart enough to steal my children but you are smart enought to cloud and use the Constution of the United States to protect the very enemy of this Country and make statements such as you just did I also went to school but when I read the Constution and the Admendments added to I also learned to respect another's person's oponion.Also my Political party is Democrate but that has no bearing on how I vote I vote for the person I think will serve me my family and my Country the best President Bush or his party never put this Country in the mess it is in it was already there.
Picture of patoloco
Location: Arizona
Registered: 08 May 2005
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What...again, are basic human rights?

Maybe this?

Article 3, Geneva Conventions:
To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

Name a "recent" violation of these rights in Gitmo.
Picture of Ronnec
Registered: 15 November 2006
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quote:
Originally posted by SULLY1:
Ronnec-Young Jackass you are not bright enought or smart enough to steal my children but you are smart enought to cloud and use the Constution of the United States to protect the very enemy of this Country and make statements such as you just did I also went to school but when I read the Constution and the Admendments added to I also learned to respect another's person's oponion.Also my Political party is Democrate but that has no bearing on how I vote I vote for the person I think will serve me my family and my Country the best President Bush or his party never put this Country in the mess it is in it was already there.

Once you start using punctation I'll respond.

Patoloco-
I agree that some people might portray it as a death camp, but it still is not right.

"a" - "torture", albiet light- has been reported to take place, and is almost legitimized by the administration's support and approval of it.

"c" - Reported infractions again, mostly from prisoners, though not approaching A.G. severity

"d" - This IS going on, and the current administration fights so that the detainees do NOT have the right to know why they are tried, do NOT have the right to view the evidence, CAN be detained from anywhere at anytime, and not compensated for wrongful persecutions.

Recent? I guess you could take a look at Amnesty International. There is a blurb there that states, ""For over two years I have been begging for a sign that my son is alive, that he is being treated justly, that he has not been tortured, that his dignity has been preserved as he sits alone in a cell in Guantánamo." Released from Guantánamo on 24 August 2006, Murat Kurnaz had been held for four years and eight months without charge or trial."


“Whether it be by divine intervention or natural instinct, one thing is certain- Harmony with the universe and those around you is the one known truth.”- John Mapehk Tosher
Picture of SULLY1
Location: South Western Colorado
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Ronnec-I was not asking for and answer just making a statement That is my opnion of you.
Picture of thegunny
Registered: 24 January 2005
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geez ronnec, you sure do know how to stir up some shit!

For the most part, it is my opinion that those being held at GitMo should consider themselves lucky. They were all apprehended in a combat zone and treated accordingly determined mostly by how they happened to be detained. Just about all that are in Gitmo were detained with weapons, weapons that I might add were used against our troops at the time of capture. I say they should consider themselves friggin lucky in that a) they are still breathing b) they ain't dead c) they can still walk an talk

You are right that the United States practices the policy that all humans have certain Unalienable Rights, and we go well out of our way to ensure that first and foremost these detainee's are 1) kept alive 2) fed 3) restrained so they are no longer a threat to the USA and its troops 4)encouraged to cooperate with the US in detailing any knowledge concerning insurgent groups they were affiliated with at time of capture. You think all this is without cost? You think I really give a flying f*ck about them being detailed without a trial? How many times have our citizens been held for years without trials over there? The Iran Hostage situation all forgotten? Yeah, must be way before your time so that shouldn't be part of this huh? Bull crap. These types of people being detained in Gitmo are the same types of people that perpared and drove a truck bomb into our building in the Beruit Airport and killed 241 of my friends back in 1983. I know this because I was there. Where were you when these events were taking place?

To assert that they (gitmo detainees) should be treated as we would treat a fellow citizen of our own country is completely absurd. The very fact that information obtained during our interogations (regardless of technique) has in all liklyhood saved countless thousand of American lives already, perhaps even your own or someone you know. Perhaps you haven't noticed with those blinders you so proudly wear everyday, but there hasn't been a single successful terrorist attack in our country since 9/11. Just why do you think that is? Just what do you think has prevented this? Do you honestly think they haven't been trying anymore? Just how friggin naive are you?


SEMPER FI
The Gunny

PROUD TO BE AN INFIDEL

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don’t.

“The Meek shall inherit the earth….after I’m through with it.”

Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Picture of mech768
Registered: 12 August 2005
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For the most part Gunny they haven't been anywhere, except a vaction, and all they know is is spoon fed to them by the media. Ane we all know where the media comes from.


Where's the coffee?
Picture of patoloco
Location: Arizona
Registered: 08 May 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by Ronnec:

Patoloco-
I agree that some people might portray it as a death camp, but it still is not right.

"a" - "torture", albiet light- has been reported to take place, and is almost legitimized by the administration's support and approval of it.


Again...."light torture"? C'mon.

quote:

"c" - Reported infractions again, mostly from prisoners, though not approaching A.G. severity


Terrorist training manual says "whenever detained to claim torture and mistreatment"...sure I'll believe these detainees.

quote:

"d" - This IS going on, and the current administration fights so that the detainees do NOT have the right to know why they are tried, do NOT have the right to view the evidence, CAN be detained from anywhere at anytime, and not compensated for wrongful persecutions.

Besides the fact that this is not true....
What is going on? Has anyone been wrongly convicted of anything? They declared war on the U.S. They are being detained in this war. All of this is addressed by international law. The U.S. courts say there is no habeas corpus for detainees in a conflict.

quote:

Recent? I guess you could take a look at Amnesty International. There is a blurb there that states, ""For over two years I have been begging for a sign that my son is alive, that he is being treated justly, that he has not been tortured, that his dignity has been preserved as he sits alone in a cell in Guantánamo." Released from Guantánamo on 24 August 2006, Murat Kurnaz had been held for four years and eight months without charge or trial."


There's no violation. He was detained. Not tortured (according to this, it's not alleged). See, you keep thinking detainment is a punishment in and of itself. It's not. He was detained to "keep him off the battlefield". It's a war, whether you think so or not, and parties to that conflict have a right to detain combatants. The GCPW may be an outdated document, but it's the only one we have-- might as well apply the laws of war to a war the enemy has defined.
Picture of Ronnec
Registered: 15 November 2006
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Oh. This is embarrasing...

I think I'm wrong. ****.

Anyway, I'd still say that any justification of alleged water boarding is still wrong, no matter what the motivating.

Cheers!


“Whether it be by divine intervention or natural instinct, one thing is certain- Harmony with the universe and those around you is the one known truth.”- John Mapehk Tosher
Picture of thegunny
Registered: 24 January 2005
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Ronnec

You need to remember one key item when reading any news report.....use of the term alleged. Anyone can make an allegation. Reporters do this all the time simply to make their story. Then the government has to spend all the time money and effort to confirm or deny these types of allegations.

We don't use waterboarding to gain intell. (we play Celine Dion on endless loop) to get what we want!


SEMPER FI
The Gunny

PROUD TO BE AN INFIDEL

Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don’t.

“The Meek shall inherit the earth….after I’m through with it.”

Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
"Curmudgeon"
Picture of HarryP
Location: Washtenaw County, Michigan
Registered: 21 January 2005
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I would consider that torture beyond my ability to resist!


"It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it"
DOUGLAS MacARTHUR, 1952
Picture of patoloco
Location: Arizona
Registered: 08 May 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by Ronnec:
Oh. This is embarrasing...

I think I'm wrong. ****.

Anyway, I'd still say that any justification of alleged water boarding is still wrong, no matter what the motivating.

Cheers!


When was water-boarding used in Gitmo? Spouting off half-truths and innuendo does make you wrong.
Won't deny that water-boarding was done, but not in Gitmo. Water-boarding also...is not defined as torture by the current administration...though I do have doubts about it ethically, as well as its effectiveness.
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