Yogi, check your PM.

It seems to me that when joining the military people need to understand that they maybe risking life and limb. I do not believe military members have a right to disobey orders for a dangerous mission, unlawful orders yes as has been already stated but dangerous no.

quote:

---

Originally posted by r36mx(2nd):
It seems to me that when joining the military people need to understand that they maybe risking life and limb. I do not believe military members have a right to disobey orders for a dangerous mission, unlawful orders yes as has been already stated but dangerous no.

---

There's a limit on being stupid.

Charge two machine guns for some dumb ass that wants to be a hero and get a MOH pinned on him?

Ain't my style.

Hal9000...Sorry, just figured out how the PM works.

Yogi

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dane46:
True story what would you do?

Your platoon comes upon to two heavy enemy MGs at the head of pathway between two rice paddies. The MGs have interlocking fire. Your PL, a 2Lt: who has stated he is there to win the MOH, says follow me! Plt Sgt states that it is suicide and we need to use correct procedures. The LT tells him to shut-up and gives him a direct order to charge the enemy. The LT seeing the troops are hesitant shouts I gave a direct order if you disobey me you will be court maritial and sent to Leavenworth. He then turns raises his arm and says follow me! What would you do?

---

RE: I don't know how you guys handled that, but in my old platoon, the LT would have been greated by a chorus of "Fug you" from everyone.

That would be just before, or after you shot him?

We would have laughed at the stupid F**ker.

Dane, you milked this long enough. Tell us WTF happened!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thud357l:
Dane, you milked this long enough. Tell us WTF happened!

---

:Like THUD said, come on spill.

Airborne I would have to agree that I too would not be to hot on the idea of charging a machinegun for the glory of another.

Sorry guys, haven't been on site for a while and thought this was a dead issue.

The Plt Sgt (PS) saw that the troops were scared at both consequences. So when the Plt Leader (PL) turned raised his arm and yelled follow him, the PS pulled out his entrenching tool (the old wooden handle type) and smacked him in the back of the head! He then took charge of the platoon, had half engage with suppressive fire and the rest flanked and destroyed both without a casualty. (It turns out when he whacked the PL, it was a deflected blow partially off his helmet.)

Unfortunately the PL wasn't dead. He pressed charges. During the court-martial the PS was asked if his intent was just incapacitate the PL why didn't decide on some other recourse. The PS told the court his intent was to "Kill the dumb ****er!" Bring the platoon back under control and continue the mission.

His trial ended in his being convicted of a lesser charge of attempted manslaughter and reduced to private and sent to Leavenworth.

I knew this NCO years after the fact. He was such a cool, professional, very calm, quiet and squared away. I got to know him as he lived in the barracks and when I had CQ, normally my three year old son would spend part of the day with me. My son knew every room in the barracks where the troops had pets. This particular SSG had a very large aquarium and my son loved it so we got to know him.

The day he was promoted to SFC, I was again on CQ and he was celebrating. I asked him why it took so long to make E-7 as at that time it was fast promotion in his field. That is when he told me the story and after a short time in Leavenworth, he was asked if he wanted a second chance which he jumped on. He said he was surprised that he would achieve any rank above sargeant because of the incident. It seems that the boards could recommend, without the soldier knowing it, that if his time in Leavenworth proved him to be the soldier they thought he was that he could be given another chance.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Dane46,

This is the kind of horror story all us soon to be LTs love to hear about the failures of new leadership. I laughed my asz off. Thanks for that. . .

Joe, I have two, retired AF LTCs in the family and both will tell you that their careers were made by good NCOes. But take the NCO's word and experience unless they prove otherwise, weigh the situation, and take appropriate action for those who don't pan out!

I am glad to know that he did have his 'second chance' and still was able to make rank after the incident. He sounds like an excellent NCO

Somehow I do not think that the PLs career was a long one.

Quote:
TOW Gunner
Major

Do military members have the right to disobey orders because they feel the mission is too hazardous?
------------------------------------------------

Yes Sir, but there is harsh consequences for disobeying an order. The safest thing to do is carryout the order, document the situation, time, date, witnesses, location when order initiated, then brief the soldiers what the mission is and carry on.

After the mission is completed then if time permits question the order that was done, if you felt it was unsafe. Discuss the circumstances and come up with a solution to perfect plan for the future, but out right disobeying an order will put any soldier in a no win situation. Disobeying an order is the same as commiting treason, and that's why we have so many soldiers in trouble now especially the Reserves and National Gurard Soldiers.

fwilli52

This may not be very practical in a combat situation.

quote:

---

Originally posted by AirborneHound:
fwilli52

This may not be very practical in a combat situation.

---

------------------------------------------------
Sir, I rather take that chance to clear the air with my superior who initiated the order and come up with a better solution for future missions, than to be in conflict and lose focus on the purpose for being on foreign soil. We all been taught about communication, and it really need to be exercise more and more, understanding and clear on what have to be done will lessen the mistakes on our part.

fwilli52...

Dane46 gave an example of a butter bar who wanted to be a hero and charge two machine guns that had him and his men pinned down in a cross fire. The guy wanted to win a MOH.


This isn't the time to "clear the air" to come up with a better solution.

It would be made very clear to the 2LT. He would have a real good understanding that if he didn't get his shit together, he's either charging the machine guns on his own, or taking a round before giving a dumb ass order like that.

No soldier has the right to disobey a lawful military order, bottom line if we're at war and the given order falls within the Law Of Armed Conflict then disobeying that order needs to be punished quickly and in a harsh manner, if the given order falls outside of the LAC then he/she has everyright to say "no"