blah, blah, blah

That was a mature response, you couldent find a line item to debate (while circumventing 90% of my post) so you posted this.

Go get raped, you worthless no-lifer.

Auf, that's not a very nice thing to say, if you disagree with what he said, which you have every right to do, you should do it in a way that shows you're the better person.

Thats all I ask for is a logical debate addressing my entire post and not a line item because you cant debate the other 90% of my post. Disagreement is what makes forums interesting but when the only debating is name calling or using the "dotted line argument" it gets old, although I still hold out hope that some on here can offer an intellegant debate.

quote:

Originally posted by Hyperion:
Auf, that's not a very nice thing to say, if you disagree with what he said, which you have every right to do, you should do it in a way that shows you're the better person.

It's been tried. He doesn't listen to reasoned arguments or advice and keeps spouting the same crap. That's why everyone here has him on ignore. Auk might not have even read the response (I didn't, I don't care what he has to say).

wow, never knew the mounties would lessen up that much *should've told one of my friends who was going into the navy about this* xD

The "reasoned arguments" patoloco is refering to always boiled down to the dotted line argument.

hmmm, what's the dotted line?

Alot is not a word!!!!! How can anyone read the crap you put out if you cannot get simple grammer through your thick head?

Harry, if you don't like what he has to say then just ignore him and stop filling up the forums with posts saying that you hate him, we all know you hate him, so can we please stop beating a dead horse and move on to something more important?

the dotted line argument is "you signed on the dotted line" so therefore I dont have to offer an intellegent argument. The original question I asked about a year ago was about getting out of the military and peoples views and people themselves change or they dont like what they got themselves into and the only boiled down argument on the other side is the "dotted line arguement" instead of the military trying to figure out and remediate why several want to leave they use the "dotted line arguement" and dictate through fear and intimidation, if you go AWOL we will issue a federal warrant, if you want out lagitimatly we are going to put up so many road blocks it will take the majority of your contract to accomplish your exit. if that isent ruling through fear and intimidation I dont know what is.

Once again -- you have no moral or ethical standing let alone one which is legal.

heh, well, I'm not 450, but poor fitness has kept me from joining the military. I've been fighting weight and a back injury I incurred when I was 18 and thought I could lift anything for years now. I have a bachelor's degree with honors and (guessing based on my SATs) I could kill the ASVAB, but lousy diet and inconsistant exercise have kept me way off the standards I would need to meet.

This thread degenerated into flame wars pretty quickly...

From an economic standpoint, the consistent, continued failings of the current recruiting system has finally begun to highlight some intrinsic flaws to our (US) all-volunteer armed services.

The biggest issue here is probably the fact that higher quality recruits have enough going for them at life that they have more lucrative, prestigous or comfortable alternative career paths to choose from. I grew up in a middle class suburb and many of my classmates were middle-upper class- only two in my entire 500-600 graduating class enlisted in the military. And I didn't even consider the military until after I lost my scholarships, failed out of college and got bored with my life.

I am a man of ability and have achieved quite a bit during my first enlistment here in the Marine Corps (meritorious Sgt in under 3 years). So figure then, how many other young men and women like me are out there who actually finished college, trying to find their way in the world, or doing something that pays more but that they don't care for, who could be doing great, great things as NCOs or officers in whichever service picks them up?

That's one of the biggest reasons why I think the US needs to re-implement compulsory military service. Obviously some new algorithim would be required so as to pull equally, or at least proportionately from each socioeconomic class so the government would have a way of minimizing the garbage and maximizing the gems coming in.

The answer doesn't lie in lowering standards. The fact that the government is even entertaining such policy shows exactly how desperate they are.

The politicians dont have the back bone to implement compulsury military service becasue it could potentially mean the end of there carrer. The military has alot of work to do before the start drafting degreed professionals, you are not going to get "gems" if you pull engineers and scientists out of there office and start treating them like 18 yr old privates. There would be alot of work to facilitate that type of military service unless you wanted to create wide spread hate for the military 10 times greater than what it is now. Also you loose the ever so coveted slogan "you signed on the dotted line". Compulsory military service would create alot more problems than it would fix. People with good jobs and lives dont join the military for a reason.

rppearso why do you say the same thing so many times if i got a dollar for everytim time you said dotted line i'd be driving a bmw m3 through costa rica with an uzi in my glove box

quote:

Originally posted by rppearso:
The politicians dont have the back bone to implement compulsury military service becasue it could potentially mean the end of there carrer. The military has alot of work to do before the start drafting degreed professionals, you are not going to get "gems" if you pull engineers and scientists out of there office and start treating them like 18 yr old privates. There would be alot of work to facilitate that type of military service unless you wanted to create wide spread hate for the military 10 times greater than what it is now. Also you loose the ever so coveted slogan "you signed on the dotted line". Compulsory military service would create alot more problems than it would fix. People with good jobs and lives dont join the military for a reason.

at the risk of getting sucked into another flame war...

you're right about politicians lacking the nerve to enact legislation bringing back mandatory service. this is in part due to the also deteriorating system of representative democracy we have in the country because of the growing pervasive power of political lobbying (but that's another can of worms altogether).

but regardless of the fact, a US draft would obviously take from other countries successful systems of compulsory service (e.g. Israel, S. Korea), after thorough thought and reflection by senior officials. consequently, you'd see that there would never be the yanking of engineers, scientists and doctors out of their offices because the government defense services would get them while they were young and before they established themselves in the civilian sector... either directly out of high school or college.

i think because you are bitter and spiteful towards the military from your own negative experiences and mindset, you automatically react with worst-case scenarios. there are a lot more people than you think who would grow and flourish as leaders, soldiers and warriors from a period of military service. the "alphas" and "go-getters" of society (and the type of people such a draft would be targeted at) are the type of people who have enough self respect and pride to never back down from duty, or a challenge. and then there's also the diamonds in the rough: people who, under different socioeconomic circumstances, or with a little bit of direction in their life, COULD have become great assets to society. this latter group i think is the biggest damn tragedy in America today. i know, and so do my friends, many young men of great ability, who are just wasting away in the civilian sector, floating around kind of aimlessly. if the government could harness and tap that potential properly, then this country could be so much greater than it is.

im trying not to judge you, but you seem like just another one of those too-smart for his own good type of non-rates. smart enough to pick things apart and concoct some reasoning to continuously justify/scapegoat your own personal failings, but not smart enough to face and correct the root issues of those failures. i know, as just another motivated, brain-washed, faceless jarhead posting over the internet that i probably won't get through to you, but man! before you instinctively grasp at your automated negative-anti-military rhetoric and reasoning, try to see the good and the positive of what you're criticizing. because, even after you're done with the military, that type of negative mentality and reinforcement will get you nothing in the civilian sector.

The reason I said what I did is because you refered to people who were finished with college. I guess that can mean in any kind of major, but with engineering and science degrees and with an EIT (if in engineering) you are considered a professional and to pull these people into compulsory military service would be a huge mistake, we are already extremely short handed for well qualified engineers working to rebuild this nations energy infrastructure (ie prudhoe bay for my work) that we dont need the military putting chemical/mechanical/electrical/etc engineers into basic training to learn how to get hazed in fact even pulling juniors or seniors in engineering or science is a grave mistake we are having to hire technical people from over seas because there are not enough qualified people in the US to get the meat (ie simulations difficult calculations trouble shooting etc) technical work done. Also I disagree with subhuman treatment of professionals, we should not be compulsury drafting technical professionals (even thoes in school junior or senior year) to be "warriors".

I cant even tell you how many shades of pissed off I would be if I were drafted back into the military (especially active duty) especailly now that I am nearing my PE licence and starting on a physics masters soon after. You should read up on albert einstin sometime he was very much against the mindlessness of the military machine. I think in order for a compulsory military service to work you have to build genuine commradery where everyone is fully aware of the mission and its not a "because I said so" atmosphere. Also the focus on customs and courtesys needs to be dramaticly reduced if not eliminated, units need to be built as true teams where you go out and train and come back and split a keg. If you start trying to control people who are smarter than you, they are going to find a way around it or a way to sabatoge you without it comming back on them (and I dont mean physical, it could be deformation of character etc). When you run things using fear and intimidation you create a CYA atmosphere where people are more concerned with covering there ass than getting anything usefull done, as soon as I realized what I got myself into with the military I instantly went to CYA mode, I made sure I had things I writing and anything done in speach was simply to patronize thoes above me to avoid harasment. This is not ment to offend but the military tends to generate this type of behavior in intelegent individuals people who are smart enough to know they dont have to take your crap they can differentiate between harrasment and lagitimate difficult training, just because you can come up with a creative excuse to call my mom a whore, scream in my ear, swear at me, etc, etc and convince the officer does not mean I buy it, its a bunch of crap everyone on this forum knows it and fail to admit it becasue they have the I went through it so I will be damned if you dont go through it syndrome it is the same way hazing perpetuates in fraternitys no one will break it because they had to go through it. I dont need to have you swearing at me to bead in on you with my H&K G3 and take you out, people on this forum who think im a candy ass could not be more wrong. If you want to get down to some real training im down, if you want to start the crap im out. Like when I was sitting around waiting to go to OCS for a YEAR! I volunteered to go on a 13K or whatever road march with the another class of OC's we got in the van and one of the otehr OC's was a civil engineer getting ready to take his civil PE and was also in aviation so we started talking and one of the sgts started spouting off explatives shut your mouths yada yada I should roll up the windows and turn on the heat (it was summer time), I wanted to tell him to shut his damn mouth and if he had a problem we could stop the van and settle it outside (hey we both had VA benifits) but I would have gotten into administrative trouble and it would have made my outprocessing harder. So the military talks hard but if you take it to the next level thats a no no not to mention how pansy ass is it that dueling is against the UCMJ, if you want to be a pissy prick no better way than to duel it out, I figure you should back up your mouth if you want to sit there and shout explatives at someone you should be prepared for a butt stoke to the head. Not to mention the back door drafting of the national gaurd, national gaurd should be totally independant of the federal military

Thats just my opinion and I think I have some valid experence to back it up.