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![]() Location: Where America's day begins.
Registered: 08 March 2005
Posts: 1008
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GITMO is hell (for U.S. Guards)
http://www.insightmag.com/Media/MediaManager/Guantanamo.htm
my salad's ok... Hafa Adai! |
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Registered: 15 November 2006
Posts: 72
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The problem is that people- not always terrorists- are detained there without any guaranteed basic humans rights. There is documented events of "torture" that has taken place in G.
The Bush administration vies for devalueing human rights provided for prisoners of war and in the court of law. “Whether it be by divine intervention or natural instinct, one thing is certain- Harmony with the universe and those around you is the one known truth.”- John Mapehk Tosher |
![]() Location: Arizona
Registered: 08 May 2005
Posts: 1794
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Ah, here we go again. Why is "torture" in quotes? What do you define as torture? And what exactly are "basic human rights"?
Many people throw these terms around without defining them.... Most of them, a great majority of them were (and ALL of them right now ARE) terrorists being held in Gitmo. As far as I'm concerned they have their basic human rights. They are relatively free of bruises, no extra holes, all still have their heads, and not a burn on them. More than they would do for us. |
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Registered: 15 November 2006
Posts: 72
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I used "torture" specifically in quotes because I know it has multiple degrees of definition, so I made it apply to the recent accusations- whether they are sound or not. That's why I used the quotation marks. Maybe I shoulda just said that, lol...
"basic human rights" are things that we value like punishment fits the crime, innocent until proven guilty, honorable war tactics, right a fair trial, et cetera. All those things are denied to the detainees. From LINK: The Marines have built their proud reputation on fighting for freedoms like the one that allows me to do my job, a job that in some cases may appear to discredit them. But both the leaders and the grunts in the field like you understand that if you lower your standards, if you accept less, than less is what you'll become. There are people in our own country that would weaken your institution and our nation –by telling you it's okay to betray our guiding principles by not making the tough decisions, by letting difficult circumstances turns us into victims or worse…villains. I interviewed your Commanding Officer, Lieutenant Colonel Willy Buhl, before the battle for Falluja began. He said something very powerful at the time-something that now seems prophetic. It was this: "We're the good guys. We are Americans. We are fighting a gentleman's war here -- because we don't behead people, we don't come down to the same level of the people we're combating. That's a very difficult thing for a young 18-year-old Marine who's been trained to locate, close with and destroy the enemy with fire and close combat. That's a very difficult thing for a 42-year-old lieutenant colonel with 23 years experience in the service who was trained to do the same thing once upon a time, and who now has a thousand-plus men to lead, guide, coach, mentor -- and ensure we remain the good guys and keep the moral high ground." --------------- Then again, that could be taken out of context because they weren't referring to G. Meh. “Whether it be by divine intervention or natural instinct, one thing is certain- Harmony with the universe and those around you is the one known truth.”- John Mapehk Tosher |
![]() Registered: 24 January 2005
Posts: 3442
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Hmmmm, should we relocate them to the US from Gitmo? How about we put the camp in your town and transport all of these folks there so you can help insure by standing outside the fence that they are afforded all of your version of basic human rights?
SEMPER FI The Gunny PROUD TO BE AN INFIDEL Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don’t. “The Meek shall inherit the earth….after I’m through with it.” A pessimist's blood type is always b-negative |
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Registered: 15 November 2006
Posts: 72
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Humans have inalienable rights. No matter where they are, they have them.
Whereever the detention center is, the policies should reflect our constitution and humanitarian laws. It does not. Neocons are trying to change the clauses of rights and enact new laws to take away rights. When was that ever a priority of this nation or its administrations until now? “Whether it be by divine intervention or natural instinct, one thing is certain- Harmony with the universe and those around you is the one known truth.”- John Mapehk Tosher |
![]() Location: South Western Colorado
Registered: 24 November 2005
Posts: 1278
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Ronnec- well at least we know where your post are going all of you far left all have one thing in common the word Neocon you all use the 1st Admenment as a crutch.You all support ACLU and these Human Rights groups you ignore all the rest of the Constitution and everyone else's rights as long as it fits your purpose.
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Registered: 15 November 2006
Posts: 72
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Shit, I hate being the liberal out to steal your children. I can't sleep at night. That's right. I'm out to undermine the longest-living constitution for our type of government. One that's stood the test of time and my adolescence. Neoconservatives exist. It's a political group. They are not "Reagan Republicans". Denying that IS willfull ignorance. Do I really need to define what a Neocon is? I'm not out to demonize any political party. I will bash their policies though. I have news for you. I am exactly center. I am fiscally conservative (to an extent) but socially liberal. Even pinko democrats are barely left of center. Right in our country is FAR right, and far right...well, Even righter-er. The political spectrum is more 3-dimensional anyway. I really do not want to debate partisan politics. I don't demonize anyone. If you want to take your best shot at the Democratic party in America then, by all means, be my guest. I shall respond. I'll just say, that Neoconservatism- as it is used now, is a slur at those who support G.W.Bush in many topics not considered traditional for Reagan Republicans. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Ronnec, “Whether it be by divine intervention or natural instinct, one thing is certain- Harmony with the universe and those around you is the one known truth.”- John Mapehk Tosher |
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Registered: 15 November 2006
Posts: 72
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Yeah, the DoI, which values are exemplified further in our founding documents.
I had to memorize that in 8th grade... Sadly, I have forgotten it... “Whether it be by divine intervention or natural instinct, one thing is certain- Harmony with the universe and those around you is the one known truth.”- John Mapehk Tosher |
![]() Location: South Western Colorado
Registered: 24 November 2005
Posts: 1278
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Ronnec-Young Jackass you are not bright enought or smart enough to steal my children but you are smart enought to cloud and use the Constution of the United States to protect the very enemy of this Country and make statements such as you just did I also went to school but when I read the Constution and the Admendments added to I also learned to respect another's person's oponion.Also my Political party is Democrate but that has no bearing on how I vote I vote for the person I think will serve me my family and my Country the best President Bush or his party never put this Country in the mess it is in it was already there.
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![]() Location: Arizona
Registered: 08 May 2005
Posts: 1794
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What...again, are basic human rights?
Maybe this? Article 3, Geneva Conventions: To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons: (a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; (b) Taking of hostages; (c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment; (d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples. Name a "recent" violation of these rights in Gitmo. |
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Registered: 15 November 2006
Posts: 72
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Once you start using punctation I'll respond. Patoloco- I agree that some people might portray it as a death camp, but it still is not right. "a" - "torture", albiet light- has been reported to take place, and is almost legitimized by the administration's support and approval of it. "c" - Reported infractions again, mostly from prisoners, though not approaching A.G. severity "d" - This IS going on, and the current administration fights so that the detainees do NOT have the right to know why they are tried, do NOT have the right to view the evidence, CAN be detained from anywhere at anytime, and not compensated for wrongful persecutions. Recent? I guess you could take a look at Amnesty International. There is a blurb there that states, ""For over two years I have been begging for a sign that my son is alive, that he is being treated justly, that he has not been tortured, that his dignity has been preserved as he sits alone in a cell in Guantánamo." Released from Guantánamo on 24 August 2006, Murat Kurnaz had been held for four years and eight months without charge or trial." “Whether it be by divine intervention or natural instinct, one thing is certain- Harmony with the universe and those around you is the one known truth.”- John Mapehk Tosher |
![]() Location: South Western Colorado
Registered: 24 November 2005
Posts: 1278
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Ronnec-I was not asking for and answer just making a statement That is my opnion of you.
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![]() Registered: 24 January 2005
Posts: 3442
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geez ronnec, you sure do know how to stir up some shit!
For the most part, it is my opinion that those being held at GitMo should consider themselves lucky. They were all apprehended in a combat zone and treated accordingly determined mostly by how they happened to be detained. Just about all that are in Gitmo were detained with weapons, weapons that I might add were used against our troops at the time of capture. I say they should consider themselves friggin lucky in that a) they are still breathing b) they ain't dead c) they can still walk an talk You are right that the United States practices the policy that all humans have certain Unalienable Rights, and we go well out of our way to ensure that first and foremost these detainee's are 1) kept alive 2) fed 3) restrained so they are no longer a threat to the USA and its troops 4)encouraged to cooperate with the US in detailing any knowledge concerning insurgent groups they were affiliated with at time of capture. You think all this is without cost? You think I really give a flying f*ck about them being detailed without a trial? How many times have our citizens been held for years without trials over there? The Iran Hostage situation all forgotten? Yeah, must be way before your time so that shouldn't be part of this huh? Bull crap. These types of people being detained in Gitmo are the same types of people that perpared and drove a truck bomb into our building in the Beruit Airport and killed 241 of my friends back in 1983. I know this because I was there. Where were you when these events were taking place? To assert that they (gitmo detainees) should be treated as we would treat a fellow citizen of our own country is completely absurd. The very fact that information obtained during our interogations (regardless of technique) has in all liklyhood saved countless thousand of American lives already, perhaps even your own or someone you know. Perhaps you haven't noticed with those blinders you so proudly wear everyday, but there hasn't been a single successful terrorist attack in our country since 9/11. Just why do you think that is? Just what do you think has prevented this? Do you honestly think they haven't been trying anymore? Just how friggin naive are you? SEMPER FI The Gunny PROUD TO BE AN INFIDEL Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don’t. “The Meek shall inherit the earth….after I’m through with it.” A pessimist's blood type is always b-negative |
![]() Registered: 12 August 2005
Posts: 190
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For the most part Gunny they haven't been anywhere, except a vaction, and all they know is is spoon fed to them by the media. Ane we all know where the media comes from.
Where's the coffee? |
![]() Location: Arizona
Registered: 08 May 2005
Posts: 1794
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Again...."light torture"? C'mon.
Terrorist training manual says "whenever detained to claim torture and mistreatment"...sure I'll believe these detainees.
Besides the fact that this is not true.... What is going on? Has anyone been wrongly convicted of anything? They declared war on the U.S. They are being detained in this war. All of this is addressed by international law. The U.S. courts say there is no habeas corpus for detainees in a conflict.
There's no violation. He was detained. Not tortured (according to this, it's not alleged). See, you keep thinking detainment is a punishment in and of itself. It's not. He was detained to "keep him off the battlefield". It's a war, whether you think so or not, and parties to that conflict have a right to detain combatants. The GCPW may be an outdated document, but it's the only one we have-- might as well apply the laws of war to a war the enemy has defined. |
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Registered: 15 November 2006
Posts: 72
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Oh. This is embarrasing...
I think I'm wrong. ****. Anyway, I'd still say that any justification of alleged water boarding is still wrong, no matter what the motivating. Cheers! “Whether it be by divine intervention or natural instinct, one thing is certain- Harmony with the universe and those around you is the one known truth.”- John Mapehk Tosher |
![]() Registered: 24 January 2005
Posts: 3442
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Ronnec
You need to remember one key item when reading any news report.....use of the term alleged. Anyone can make an allegation. Reporters do this all the time simply to make their story. Then the government has to spend all the time money and effort to confirm or deny these types of allegations. We don't use waterboarding to gain intell. (we play Celine Dion on endless loop) to get what we want! SEMPER FI The Gunny PROUD TO BE AN INFIDEL Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don’t. “The Meek shall inherit the earth….after I’m through with it.” A pessimist's blood type is always b-negative |
"Curmudgeon"![]() Location: Washtenaw County, Michigan
Registered: 21 January 2005
Posts: 1928
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I would consider that torture beyond my ability to resist!
"It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" DOUGLAS MacARTHUR, 1952 |
![]() Location: Arizona
Registered: 08 May 2005
Posts: 1794
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When was water-boarding used in Gitmo? Spouting off half-truths and innuendo does make you wrong. Won't deny that water-boarding was done, but not in Gitmo. Water-boarding also...is not defined as torture by the current administration...though I do have doubts about it ethically, as well as its effectiveness. |
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