Okay.. boys and girls.. this is the latest on the deal

Seems that Joshua Key, a former combat engineer and US Army deserter, is putting his case before the Canajan tribunal to stay up here and play nice because he's a] afraid that he'll get bitchslapped real good if he goes back home and b] he thinks America is a nasty bigoted country covering up war atrocities..

Key is one of 20 American deserters officially claiming refugee/asylum status in Canada.. the War Resisters Support Campaign claims that there are about 100 more ' underground' waiting to see how the winds blow and the US acknowledged that about 8000 troops have deseerted [ well , technically gone AWOL beyond a certain specified time limit ] since the war started in 2003.

At Key's hearing he recounted how he witnessed soldiers kicking the severed heads of Iraqis about like soccer balls, that some soldiers shot a guy in the foot for making a rude gesture, and other 'atrocities ' [ he served 8 months on the front lines so he's ' seen it all ' ]

anyway.. the Tribunal has indicated that they will not consider any evidence regarding the ' legality' of the war and he must offer proof that he would be ' persecuted ' [ not prosecuted ] should he return to the US..
Canada has granted asylum to soldier/deserters from Iran, Iraq, Turkey and even Israel but not any soldier from a state/country that does not have conscription...
Officially, at worst, Key, on being returned to the US would face a maximum of 5 years in prison, but, recent records show that most deseerters have yet to receive such a sentence with many merely being processed out, demoted in rank, and forfeiting pay and benefits...

Key claims that he only signed on in the first place for education and skills training benefits and specified that he didn't want to be deployed to a combat/active zone because he had a wife and 3 kids.. When he was sent anyway he complained and was ' smoked' by his squad leader and denigrated by higher ups for challenging the terms of his contract [ pays to read the fine print before signing on - compaining in basic is too late -right rrpearso? ]

After being transferred back after his tour he legged it north..

the case is pending...

with the new pro-America, but not necessarily pro-Bush government up here, I think its not overly optomistic to suggest that a small comfy accomodation awaits him at the end of his quest, and it ain't a split level condo on this side of the great lakes..[ IMHO ]

Another one again! Why don't ppl know that when you sign up you are signing that you are Gov. property! Doesn't make any sense! I wish ppl would atleast think about what they are going in for..Not education..Not money...You should be thinking about how you get to pay your country back by serving for your fellow Americans!!! The money, education, benefits are just an added bonus to serving your country!

I think that anyone who wants out and is seeking asylum, should be offered free transportation to the Dominican Republic as long as they do not come back.

NOTE: I have nothing against the Dominican Republic or its people – it is just a poor country where food is more important to some than ideals.

I always find stories like this amusing. "I signed up for college money and a job skill.." is the funniest statement that a soldier can make. We are the US military, we are in the business of fighting and winning wars. I find it hard to believe that one could mistake this organization for some college fund/job school. I mean, the military has been around for a day or two, been in some newsworthy battles, but yet going to fight is now wrong or breach of contract? Looks like someone else just wanted to fly...

We had a guy in Vietnam who decided that perimeter guard was too dangerous and claimed conscientious objector status for religious reasons. He refused to carry a weapon, which he could because he mentioned it when we was drafted but never pressed the matter (he was afforded the status during the formal review).

My job on perimeter guard was to drive a ¾ ton with an M-60 mounted in the rear with its gunner up and down the line on roving patrol (we called it moving target duty). We also filled gaps in the wire caused by erosion by guarding them all night.

I showed up with the vehicle ready for formation one evening and was told that I would be a gunner’s assistant and that the young man would drive the vehicle. He was told that since he did not have to carry a weapon, he could not disobey the order. It was also explained to him in great detail what our Major would do to him should he refuse.

The poor fool had to pull guard duty every three days (as did we all) without his weapon. He got out of nothing and was not allowed to become a shirker. He was also told by his fellow guards that we would shoot him if he ran while we were under attack.

I always admired the way our CO handled the situation. He showed this guy that it changed very little and it showed the men that the CO was a leader (even if he drove helicopters).

Good story Harry.

I never had to deal with a deserter, but one poor soul that was in my squad at Parris Island was just about to have a nervous breakdown. The DI's told me to talk to him, and he's saying that he only joined for college money.

So I'm incredulous "You joined the Marine Corps for college money?! You're supposed to join one of the other branches for college money!"

No offense to other branches, but just by reputation alone, what kind of a moron would joing the Marines for college money alone. How many movies with sadistic DI's do they have to make to convince someone of this error.

okay, citizens.. move along.. nothing to see..

The Federal Court of Canada will not allow two US Army deserters to be given refugee status in Canada, despite arguments that they may be jailed when they return home.
Madame Justice Anne MacTavish yesterday refused to overrule the Immigration and Refugee Board decision that rejected the requests for political asylum for Jeremy Hinzman and Brandon Hughey [ the first two Americans who took to Canada to avoid service in Iraq ]..
The judge ruled that prosecution in the US would not amount to persecution..

bet that the 100 so so other ' underground ' refugee/deserters will now stay that way and try and duck the system rather than try and get their day in court on the same issues...

we now return you to your regularly scheduled programmes..

Hey Rocket, Warrior again --- I think Im getting your phrase finally--- "WHEN MONEY TALKS, FEW FAIL TO LISTEN", but I have to disagree... its not that people fail to listen when money is the issue, its just that when the money is constantly ending up in someone elses pocket that the rest of us are getting sick of it! And, we have more of a reason to bitch. In my college course I took it was said that approximately 3% of the nation in America are truly wealthy while the rest are lower and middle class - what would happen if "us 97% decided to come together and fight back?"

Well, warry.. if the 97% ' rose up' and tried to re-distribute the wealth you'd have the failed communism of the early Soviet Union... oh, and Bill Gates really pissed off so that he'd close up shop, lay off hundreds of thousands of workers and put even more people into poverty and depression...

My tag line is cynical to some extent..but..everyone has his/her price

there is an old joke/ story sometimes attributed to George Bernard Shaw sometimes to Churchill [ though it doesn't seem like him ].. At a dinner party, the man turned to a good looking women and asked if she would have sex with him for a huge x-amount of money.. She apparently agreed. He then asked if she would have sex with him for a buck/pound, low amount - She was angry and said " Mr X.. What do you think I am ? "
He supposedly replied.. We've already established that we're just haggling over price..

Money can buy influence, power, big toys..fact of nature

I'm thinking of changing my tag line, anyway...

That was Oscar Wild from what I remember (yes I know, Oscar did not go for the ladies).

I think it is silly to flee to Canada when there are a multitude of ways to get out of the military that are much less melodramatic, (Levenworth, prison sentence, AWOL, ooohhhh), you can just be an ate up POS and will eventually get kicked out. Go back to school and actually learn how to do something useful and that will off set the "OTH, another ooohhh". Get drunk, gain some weight and have fun with your discharge, give the sgts a real reason to write you an article 15, not because you had your boot laces out, dont flee to Canada and live in fear, thats a bunch of BS.

Dont challenge anybody or try to be a lawyer to a sgt, just be incompetant, ate up, drag ass, but dont argue, they can "smoke you" but the more ate up and out of shape you get the less push ups, fluter kicks, etc you will be able to do, they will eventually become tired of dealing with you and kick you out. If you get kicked out on an AR600-9 its considered medical, you will get a bad spn code but its better than being in iraq until the end of the bush administration.

Actually learn something useful? Is beer drinking and gaining weight useful? Its the same stuff rrpearso! When you were gone, we all thought you were working on some new material. Hmmmm. Shame.

Nope, I was busy with work. Now that summer is around the corner I have to finish my pilots licence by the end of july before my writen expires, I have like 13 hours left, a few cross countrys, 3 hrs of hood work and my check ride prep. Then I found a pitts special for a good buy so if its still there when I get the funds I can start my acrobatic flying.

There is some other material I just dont like to use it because its subjective, like Concientious Objector and claiming your gay but thoes can easily be dismissed by a commander. being overweight is explicitly spelled out in AR600-9 and if 6 months pass with no improvement the commander has to discharge you, AR600-9 is the best becasue it is NOT at the discression of the commander. You seem to like regualtions except when they are in someone elses favor. Getting drunk was probably a little melodramatic, but gaining weight is usefull because it gets you out (assuming you dont want to be there) also couple that with PT failure and a medical failure and you could be out within the month. I still have yet to look up the regulation for 09S MOS entitlement to a defective enlistment agreement, out of all the regulations on the internet that one was not avalible, so I will go to the library and make copies but that type of discharge is only for 09S MOS, unless you have an actual defective enlistment which is hard to prove.

Your discharge was your own breach of contract, not the Army's. We established that months ago. Secondly, the regulation that covers 09S Candidates, is AR 601-210 Chapter 9, Enlistment Programs and Incentives. You never had an MOS, you were a candidate, MOS denotes a specialty, which officers do not have until completion of an Officer Basic Course of their assigned branch. Your gaining weight is not what I consider an advantage or in your favor. You becoming a fat body shows a lack of respect for your own well-being, and a disregard for Army Physical Fitness regs/Weight Control regs, that you CHOSE to cast aside. Still your bad, not the Army's. End of this digression from the thread.

You are correct but the army leaves no other way out other than just being completely incompetant which depending on the situation could take a while before you actually get discharged. I think you are taking this way to personal cavscout. I quit a job I did not like because respect was not a two way street as demonstrated with the comment that "privates are a mongrel breed" they are people just like me and you. Some people think "the military" is some kind of supernatural enigma when really its just a job, the president is not god and the military does not "own" anyone. Everyone is entitled to there own religious freedom, and if your religion is the military, to each there own.

rppearso-I don't think cavscout takes it to personal I was brought up that your word was your bond and I also found out if your word was not good then your loyalty was the same.As far as the Military as being just a job if can't handle one job why would anyone else want to hire you I woudn't.

Sully is right, I really am not taking it personally. The military can't be just a job, its impossible. A job: You show up, you work, you get paid. When the job is done, you go home, and that is that. The military, on the other hand, is a 24/7 deal. This is where the root of a lot of problems in the military these days. You represent your Service and your Nation 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. There is no such thing as "off the clock." Privates are a mongrel breed, I know, I was one. And we weren't there to be respected, we were there to learn and obey. Thats what soldiers do, they obey. Our obedience and proficiency earns our respect. You seem to think respect is something freely given to all peoples of all races and creeds, like it is inherent. It is not. It is a fragile cloak we earn and wear. When you put your foot in your mouth, or screw up, its gone. And its twice as hard to get it back.

I think you are confussing profesional respect for common decency and respecting someone as a human being. Thats why you dont salute privates or call them sir or as a starting engineer allow me to stamp drawings, but they still deserve to be treated like a human being and not like "mongrels", I know you said that jokingly, but there is quite a bit of truth in that statement as well, just from my observations of the military "cast" system when I was in. The "mongrels" at the bottem and the officer elites at the top, there will always be a pecking order in any organization but its how the people on the bottem of that organization are treated that will define that organization. And always remember that the first will be last and the last will be first in the end. You can only claim "training" so far and then it becomes a disrespect for someone as a human being.

Just something to think about.

rrpearso:

There is a big difference bewteen getting on one's case for failing to have a file in by deadline or a truck delivered by Friday to ' asking ' a person to be ready to be killed or to kill on behalf of a nation...

The military isn't a job, its a philospohy and way of life, a different view of the world and what is required, a thinking of others first over self, a belief that personal sacrifice has meaning and purpose to a generation or society.. that isn't hardwired into people and needs to be ' programmed in/downloaded ' andthat's what Basic and all other levels ofv training ae for..changing mindsets from selfish to altruistic, from what's in it for me to what can I do for the country [ however small the contribution in the eyes of others ]..
You, obviously had a ' glitch ' in your system and failed to get the ' upgrades ' installed.

all for the best that you and others realised you were ' defective ' and you left...