French military falling apart

What's new? :P

I would say the only part of the french you could really count on would be the Legion any way. The regular French Army were the pits, what have they ever accomplished?

I read somewhere that the French Military had been engaged in 16 different conflicts in History and had never won one but they had one draw because the other side decided it was not worth showing up for the fight.

but I guess if they keep trying they just may win one

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Coachman,

Despite the popular image of the French military as being ineffectual, mostly because of the drubbing they took in Viet Nam, and the bad image that came out of the Algerian years, the French military is effective, strong and as good as or better than its contemporaries in the other 'states' of the EU [ with the exception of Germany - but they are hogtied as to what they can do thanks to lingering 'doubts/fears' from WWII ]. Their reputation preceeding the modern era was well justified and many senior officers would love to bring back the pride and image of the Napoleonic years.

As with many countries, it is not the calibre of soldier or its leadership that is at fault, but the prevailing government and its attitude towards its military that is the problem..

Seen it all happen here in Canada..until we got a strong General in Rick Hillier who pushed back, our military was underappreciated, underfunded and otherwise ignored by the civpop..

The French military keep a very low profile in most places only seen at airports as glorified security and on parade at memorials such as the Arch de Triumph
As soon as they were needed to meet the demands of the government's foreign/international policies, however, things changed; as the government didn't want to be embarrrassed by announcing their army would support actions such as Afghanistan and Haiti and Africa and then not having them up to the task because manpower and materiel had been allowed to slip over the intervening years [ along with morale ] so out came the cheque book and up went the rahrah-we love our troops adverts to bring the public up to speed and in support of the large expenditures needed to modernize..

This is now happening with France where Sarkozy, like all Frenchies, is loath to see the proposed new ' combined EU army fall under the leadership of the Germans or, horros, the Italians..to prove that France has the guts and balls to lead, they got to oomph up their stuff and so there will be big spending and other issues rising up. [ France is heavily into ' peacekeeping' in its former African colonies and other places ]

Naturally, the opposition parties are going to play up the shortcomings and indaequacies to 'prove' that the government can't meet its obligations, and the usual peakenik types will decry the spending necessary because they want that money to go for food banks and equality/minority issues and other feel good ' socialist' endeavours..

Despite all that, the French military has bery competent, even brilliant leaders, well trained and gung ho troops and an esprit de corps that is high and could meet the tasks if supported properly...

If you get past the partisan politics and the general level of cynicism, they will be good to go, if supported


that being said.. their dress uniforms look like crap [except for the Legion ]LOLOLOL

Rocketeer the part of my post up above came from the World History but I have read quite a bit about Vietnam.Most of which I know is from WW2 and what my Father told me about French Commanders during WW1 and the reasoning behind Pershing's refusal to let the 1st US Army to fight under the French Commanders because General Pershing called them Butchers.

One of the reasons the French look down on their military does stem from the rather brutal way they handled themselves in certain conflicts..particularly in the various African campaigns and in particular the Algerian issue..

It was the military ' atrocities' committed against the Algerians that lead to the fall from favour of the French regime and the rationale for the government to ' abandon' its mission there, leaving the military to take all the flack on a bad deal gone further sour [ though,, they deserved it in no small part ]..

A huge faction of the army ended up hating de Gaulle for hanging them out to dry [ he was never the brilliant military leader he was made out to be, but a politician in all the sense of the word who was ultimately only interested in power and his own self-image ]..

The book and movie " Day of the Jackal " [ not the crappy Bruce Willis re-make ] was based on actual military attempts to ' remove' De Gaulle in favour of a more pro-military type or, at least, one who wouldn't spin all the blame for failure in African foreign policy on the army's tactics....

With the current shift in EU and other economic factors. the French army has never recovered and Sarkozy is trying to reposition them for a new French political end.. still, he won't ' unleash' them so that they can be effective and ' commanding' in the way the US/Britain/Canada and the Dutch are in the Afghan conlfict.. Frenchies aren't allowed to take 'casualties ' or be at the pointy end.. .that's why they're taking over from the Americans in the quiet areas so that the US can support Canada in Helmund and other active Taliban areas.

all so ' politically correct' and thus the reason things haven't been cleaned up there yet..

IMHO

Most of us have read about the French underground and their contribution to WW2.Actually I have read the Day of the Jackal quite some before they made the movie just one question is French Politicans as bad as Americans.

Sully:

"Are French politicans as bad as Americans"?

geez, lad

Is the Pope a Nazi? Do bears sh*t in the woods?

they all say they want to help their fellow citizens and sound off about idealism and altruism and a lot of other ' isms' but pretty soon they're hip deep in ' consensus and compromise' and ' give and take ' and ' balancing issues and interests ' and 'being open to alternative points of view ' [ pick any euphemism for picking the side with deep pockets that will get them re-elected or moving up the ladder ]

or am I being jaded and cynical in my old age?

'course, I will admit that most of the folks' in office' don't come close to the governing techniques of robert Mugabe in defence of ' democracy '..

hehehehehehehehe

Mogadishu war story--

We ended up getting into a scrap and part of the element we were with ran from the fight (and to avoid contention and keep this on topic I'll not name the entity that ran), we called for backup and it was this French Paratroop unit that showed up and made a fine showing of themselves (I was with a six man team, the "enemy" was maybe four guys who fled after a couple of pot shots, so it wasn't a "saved our ass" type of rescue). However, the company sized element sealed off the area and caught us some bad guys. I was impressed with their professionalism and won't say the French MILITARY is all that...well, deserving of the ridicule a lot of folks heap on it.

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003756.html?wh=wh I thought this might help your point on French Military.

here's how bad things are for the Legion..
guess it wouldn't hurt to raise a glass for the froggies.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.200806...y=Legionnaire+Spirit

"Super-Sarko" seems intent on improving the French military:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7458650.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7459214.stm

Auklarer, it is not Aufklarer it is Aufklaerer with an a with two dots above it. Substitute ae on a US key board. Aufklaerer means to clear up. In the GE military Aufklaerer were the scouts, Cavalry, the guys up front, first row.

Anyone who says the French military is inefficient and unprofessionell has never been in contact with them or is simply prejudiced. They aren't any better or worse than we are. Please keep in mind that in the last 30 years or so all Western Armies and perhaps others have become softer. Toughness is not an American trait either. Ask any US serviceman (and especially the women) when he/she has been hungry the last time, when he/she took his/her last 'steel pot shower' and when he/she has been out on night patrol and didn't sleep for a day or two and could they fight on? I believe you will get some very sobering answers.

quote:

Ask any US serviceman (and especially the women) when he/she has been hungry the last time, when he/she took his/her last 'steel pot shower' and when he/she has been out on night patrol and didn't sleep for a day or two and could they fight on? I believe you will get some very sobering answers.

I don't find anything 'sobering'-- especially from Marines. Besides, let's not ask U.S. service members if they think they're getting soft. Let's ask the Iraqis, or the Afghans, or the Serbs. Most of them will tell you they were told the Americans were soft and wouldn't be able to fight without air support and hi-tech toys. And they were proved wrong.

And, there's no such thing as a "steel pot shower" (since we no longer have steel pots). I think 40mm ammo cans are the best for this type of thing, but I've seen Marines make do with the 5.56 ammo cans.

Patoloco I am glad you agree with me. Let's not split hairs over the steel pot thing. The idea counts, which says we are all getting softer. A soldier/marine, any servicemember of any nation is a direct reflection of the society at large he/she comes from (German, US, Mexican, British, French, Russion, Chinese etc.) And those societies are getting softer. We all live in comfort (yes, I know things are relative!). But if a servicemember grew up as a twinky it is difficult for him to be aggressive in combat, which I deeply believe is a 'must have' soldier trait, especially for those in the combat arms. Training can instill that behavior, but the twinky thing will come back sooner or later. In addition, the Western societies all have laws that prevent their soldiers to win battles and wars quickly with movement and firepower. It is hard to win a battle with human rights. There are to many restrictions concerning collateral damage, civilians etc. The USA is a shining example of this phenomenon. By the way: In my Army career I often had the opportunity to work with the Marines. My observation was that all that former talk about the 'knife between the teeth thing' is no longer. The Marines have become a modern fighting force.

Major I don't see the men fighting in Iraq & Afgan as twinkies I see a Fighter faceing the same as the WW2 or Korean Conflict with new Tec.equipment and attempting to fight with Rules of engagement streched out of shape by ACLU with an Enemy with no rules.The very same Men & Women of Military is the very same 1%or 2% that always supports this Country since the American Revolution.

Sure, you are right. I believe we are getting off track. This whole thing started because someone thought the French Army 'wasn't any good'. My responses were geared toward that, not to the soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq. Next time I will formulate things more careful.