I see we are all stirring the pot of hate & discontent to the point where we are turning on each other.

News Flash guy's. It allowable to be one of the far left, far right, or one of those downright boring middle of the fence kind of people. It's ok to have and hold differing views, thats what makes this country so damn interesting to live in. It is possible to make your point without pissing everyone off. If one is going to make comparisons and use history to make your point, you just better make sure that what you are referencing actually represents your side of the coin. Vietnam has no association with the war on terror. The North Vietnamese attacked the South Vietnamese. They did not attack the US. We actually had to go well out of our way for them to even have an opportunity to attack us, which they eventually did, but it occurred well outside of our own country. So, why does it constantly get used as a referencable point when discussing Iraq?

1. I am not mad at anton for having a far right veiwpoint, I am mad because he is calling me a terrorist apologist and anti-american. His veiws are his own, I take issue with his insults, not his veiws.
2. Well first off I don't compare the entire war on terror to vietnam, I compare the war in Iraq to be similar to vietnam. Iraq didn't attack us, and only attacked us once we were well in their country. Also the main comparison is that type of asymetric/non-conventional warfare common to both wars, which while not exactly the same, has many similarities.

You shouldn't use Vietnam and Iraq comparisons. totally different circumstances. In my previous reply to you, I made mention of nerve agents and other items that have been banned since WWI. Chemical and biological weapons ARE weapons of Mass Destruction. Those things were more than enough justification for taking down Iraq and saddass. I would ask you to seek out information on VX. What you discover should shake you up considerably.

The only simularities between Vietnam and Iraq is that both our military forces died there. And in the process, we killed a lot of civilians. There were days in Vietnam were we lost hundreds of men in a single hour. Ain't nothing like that killing has happened in Iraq.

Hyperion, you are acting under a false assumption that I am Far Right or have Far Right views simply because I make criticisms of the Far Left. It does not follow that someone is Right Wing simply because he is critical of the Left Wing.

Believe me when I tell you that I never focused on the Left Wing's chatter or conduct until I was confronted by the reality of 911. That event rewired me (and I submit millions of other Americans) regarding the nature and the extent of the new kind of threat that now exist. (A war and enemy completely different than what we experienced during Vietnam.) Before 911, I did not pay attention to this threat and perhaps in hindsight I should have. Unfortunately, I was too trusting of Clinton. After all, he was our president and I (wrongly) assumed that he was doing what a president should do in dealing with the first attack on the towers in 1993 or when our embassies were attacked in Africa or when the Cole was attacked or when he had several opportunities to kill OBL. I did not connect the dots and in hindsight, I should have done that. To be sure, Clinton should have connected the dots during his eight years in office. Perhaps he was too busy directing his cruise missiles into more private places rather than at our new, hidden enemy.

What you and the Far Left do not understand or accept is that THIS President, having witnessed the deaths of 3000 Americans during his watch, will do all in his power to prevent a situation where he wakes up on some nice morning 10 years from now to learn that Philadelphia has been flattened and then to be told that there were events, conditions and circumstances that occurred during his term in office and which were within his power to control such that the calamity would not have occurred. He is determined not to be accused of being asleep at his post as Clinton was during his. The Left Wing forgets that more than 5 years have passed and we have not experienced another terrorist attack. They also forget that Libya became so terrified of Bush that it voluntarily abandoned its weapons program without one shot being fired. Hyperion, this president ordered that Iraq be attacked because he had no desire to sit in his chair while humming "We Are The World" to himself as he patiently waits for all the dots to be connected before deciding that action be taken. He is no Bill Clinton and he is not a Neville Chamberlain. Like the Japanese who underestimated Roosevelt's determination to wage war after Pearl Harbor, the Islamic Fascists (and the Left Wing of America)deeply underestimated this president.

And my views are my own. but they are shared by many others. I am not alone in my assessment of the Left Wing who truly believe that the Islamic Fascists are “peace loving” and that they were provoked into attacking the US because it is an evil empire. I am not the only one who believes that the Left wing of America are sympathizers of the terrorists.

Gunny I'm sorry but there are more similarities than that. Both are examples of assymetric warfare and an insurgency. Both wars were excecuted on countries that did not attack us. There are other similarities that I am currently to tired to remember. Also anton, as I said, I am ignoring you so stop trying to talk to me, anyone who calls me a terrorist sympathizer is obviously beyond reason. Becasue I am not one, and I am very offended that you would throw such a heinous accusation. Also, you not being alone in your wanton accusations does not mean you are correct, it simply means there are others that are just as caustic, paranoid, and unreasonable as you. And if this sounds overly harsh, maybe you should have thought of that before you called me a sympathizer to terrorists.

Hyperion, what you and I post in this forum is read by several others who have an interest in our military or else they would be looking at other blogs that suit their fancy and making posts to them as they see fit. As such, I think it is fair to say that you and I should not be considered as being required to write to each other. But we should feel free to post comments to or about something that either of us has written. Indeed, many have posted to this thread and I have not commented except in cases where I thought what was said was well written or said something that I strongly disagreed. Thus, from my perspective, you may ignore me as much as you like. I am not offended by you doing that. But I will continue to make comment to positions that you or others post in a publically viewed forum and whether you care to respond is entirely up to you.

I ask that you keep the following in mind: our military is risking their lives overseas in a fight that concerns a war over ideas and values. This war pits religious fanatical cultures versus Christian or western value cultures and democratic cultures versus totalitarian cultures that just recently (in 1979) were taken over by Islamic fascists. While our heroes are defending me abroad, I intend to defend them (to the best of my limited abilities) at home. One way for me to do that is to no longer remain silent where I hear Americans spew out such crazy notions that our new enemy is somehow “peace loving” and that they should be treated accordingly. I have three problems with them saying that: 1. Germany was also a “peace loving” culture until it allowed the Nazis to take over the reigns of government in 1932 whereupon that culture became fascist – what happened then applies to what is going on in the Middle East and I refer you to the Gunny’s initial post that started this tread (the point he made should be required reading in our classrooms); 2. when I survey the landscape of views taken by those who belong to the many political spectra in this country to see which ones have good and bad points of view regarding our new threat, I conclude that there is only one that so consistently ends up spewing irrational views and attitudes about how this nation should deal with the new enemy we face, the left Wing; 3. once this nation has committed itself to go to war, it is the duty of Americans to refrain from engaging in conduct that threatens the lives of those fighting the war. This is NOT to say that debate and disagreement about the prosecution of the war should remain unsaid. To the contrary, the debate should be constructive and intended to further the successful prosecution of the war. But when I survey the statements, debates and disagreements of those throughout this country, I find that many are constructive, well-reasoned points of view about how we should proceed. There is one “cluster” of views that hit me as outrageous the moment I hear them and they originate from those who call themselves Left Wing. I find that these people cannot be reasoned with since their argument about the war now occurring in the Middle East is based entirely on a “Blame America First” ideology and a “Cut and Run” solution. Because they are burdened by these two precepts, what they say lacks credibility, is not constructive in framing a viable appropriate alternative to what this country is now doing and gives aid and comfort to our enemy in winning the battle of ideas. Unfortunately, what they say and their loudness is noted by those who are trying to kill our heroes serving overseas and it is for this reason that I will not remain silent as I hear the constant whining and claptrap coming out of the mouths of the Left Wing.

The only thing I am going to say is that they are obviously aimed at me as you were speaking to me:
Hyperion, you are acting under a false assumption that I am Far Right or have Far Right views simply because I make criticisms of the Far Left. It does not follow that someone is Right Wing simply because he is critical of the Left Wing.

Believe me when I tell you that I never focused on the Left Wing's chatter or conduct until I was confronted by the reality of 911. That event rewired me (and I submit millions of other Americans) regarding the nature and the extent of the new kind of threat that now exist. (A war and enemy completely different than what we experienced during Vietnam.) Before 911, I did not pay attention to this threat and perhaps in hindsight I should have. Unfortunately, I was too trusting of Clinton. After all, he was our president and I (wrongly) assumed that he was doing what a president should do in dealing with the first attack on the towers in 1993 or when our embassies were attacked in Africa or when the Cole was attacked or when he had several opportunities to kill OBL. I did not connect the dots and in hindsight, I should have done that. To be sure, Clinton should have connected the dots during his eight years in office. Perhaps he was too busy directing his cruise missiles into more private places rather than at our new, hidden enemy.

What you and the Far Left do not understand..."
Notice the multiple "you's" and reference to my name, so I'm sorry those were obviously addessed to me, so as such I am going to ignore the posts of someone so unreasonable that he will call me a sympathizer to terorists, period.

Anton, bru, do yourself a favour...
Do what I did, and add hyperion to your "ignore list"

Click on his profile and you will see an option "add hyperion to my ignore list".

Hyperion, I only mention the word "you" when I write because in an early post you referred to yourself as a member of the Left Wing. Please do not take my comments about the Left Wing as a personal attack against you. I presume that you strongly believe in your views as I believe in mine. Though I must confess that on a great many things I manage to see reason in the other side's position which causes me to second guess my own position, I have no doubt about the soundness of my assessment of the Islamic fascists and how the Left Wing regard them as well. Nevertheless, my assessment of the Left Wing should not be regarded as a personal attack against you.

Auflarer, it is not my desire to add anyone to an ignore list though I do appreciate your telling me this should I decide to do it in some other context or place but not here. He is not alone in his point of view and in fact is probably a moderate Left winger as compared to people like Ward Churchill, Sean Penn and other well know Left Wing icons.

A great strength of the Left Wing is also their great weakness. More than any other segment in our society, it is the Left Wing who advocate compassion and understanding especially when it concerns the downtrodden. I think that is an admirable character of theirs and the rest of us should try to incorporate that way of thinking into our lives. But that great and admirable strength is also the reason why they are so far in the wilderness when it comes to addressing the options of the United States in responding to the new kind of threat we now face in this post-911 world. Their compassion of the downtrodden causes them to lash out against the US because of its policies and practices in dealing with others around the world who they regard as oppressed, weak and incapable of standing up to the US. Unfortunately, this heightened sense of compassion blinds them to the point made by Gunny in his initial post to this tread.

It seems to me that the Left Wingers, above all others, should do all in their power to persuade those in the Middle East to recognize the Islamic Fundamentalists as fascists and to deal with those fascists decisively and in a way that the German people failed to do during the early 1930s. By the time the majority of Germans woke up to the reality of the Nazi fascists, it was too late. The Nazis were in control of the government and for every one “true” Nazi who was killed during WWII, 1000 Germans died. The Left Wing would be wise to learn from this so that the same mistake is not repeated. History teaches us that appeasement and reproachment cannot and will not work against these Islamic fascists just as it did not work against the Nazis in the 1930s. Simply ignoring these Islamic fascists as one segment of a Middle Eastern culture or treating them with benign indifference, appeasement or reproachment will not work if the teachings of history have any place in these discussions. This means that these fascists must be regarded as who they are, "fascists", and action taken now so as to prevent a truly major war from occurring. That is why I suggest that the Left Wingers give up their day jobs, leave their families and travel to Iran, Libya, Pakistan, Iraq and elsewhere to help root out the Islamic Fundamentalists who lay hidden in their mosques but whose presence is betrayed by their stench and the headless corpses of innocent civilians that line the streets of their cities. Because if the majority of the Middle Eastern cultures fail to do that (with the advice and assistance of the Left Wing), their fate will rival that of the Germans who witnessed the firestorms of Dresden and Hamburg and perhaps even the Japanese who witnessed new suns appear over the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

" Nothing except a battle lost can be half so melancholy as a battle won."

-Duke Of Wellington 1759-1852

Yet some stand when required. To not do so...empowers tyranny...

Wait...dude...what? What were we talking about again? Oh yeah, peace loving Muslims:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009890

Patoloco, thanks for sharing this WSJ Op-Ed piece. Reading it only reinforces my belief that the phrase "Muslim extremist" may well be a redundant term in describing these people.

Using this phrase is also euphemistic. There are many people around the world who can be described as not of a "peace loving" nature. Lumping the “Muslim extremists” with this group, while technically correct, does not come close to describing the nature or the extent of their virulent view toward the rest of humanity. I can think of only one group of people that comes close to emulating them I refer to the Nazis who believed that this planet’s sole purpose was to provide living space for blond, blue-eyed Aryans. The world stood by and watched as these Nazis, a loud, vocal minority, took over a government and then used its institutions to further their evil agenda, just as the AIDS virus takes over healthy cells in a human being. The Islamic Fundamentalists today stand in the shoes of these Nazis. At least then, we were acting with ignorance as we tried to coexist with the Nazi fascists. We did not know the futility of trying to do that. We even gave them Checklosovakia in the hopes that appeasing them in such fashion might cause them to abandon their hate of all tnings non-German and their desire to dominate the world. Today, we can no longer claim such ignorance as our excuse in failing to recognize and to confront our new kind of fascism, the Radical Islamists. In some respects I prefer the good old days when we had to deal with the Nazis. At least then, the Nazis did not have WMDs and our oceans provided sufficient cover. Not so today.

To me, the real issue is not whether the Muslim extremists and their sympathizers (the distinction between these two becoming more blurred as each day passes) are "peace loving" because the clear answer is that they are not. The real issue is whether our democratic society is willing to take the hard action required to deal with this cancer that afflicts mankind.

Just today, I note that House Speaker Pelosi is meeting with the President of Syria. Given her political bent and her San Francisco origins, I wonder if she aspires to wear the shoes of Neville Chamberlain.

geez o pete! gotta keep everything in proper perspective. All these euphemisms back and forth, give it a rest. Just who are you trying to convince? ME? Them? If its them, then you are in the wrong place as they ain't here. I don't know of ANY Muslim's (peacefull or otherwise) registered here on this website.

We had one once gunny but he did not last past two posts and I do not believe that anyone drove him off.

For those who compare Vietnam to Iraq deaths!
A picture is worth a thousand words....

Dude, just because the death counts are different doesn't mean there aren't many similarities between the two.

quote:

Originally posted by Hyperion:
Dude, just because the death counts are different doesn't mean there aren't many similarities between the two.

Their is no similarities! Vietnam was a completely different WAR! Now if you want to say that this Iraq war is not being fought right then that subject is open discussion! It is amazing how we got sooo many arm chair generals... Oops! Wrong statement… Keyboard Generals like to quote phrases from the past to justify their political agenda!
Well I can quote a few phrases from Patton too!


From Gen Patton, the book Gen Patton Principles by Porter B. Williamson:

1. In the long run, it is what we do not what we say that will destroy us!
2. Too much if’s, perhaps, and maybes will never win a battle!
3. No good decision was ever made in a swivel chair!
4. The way to win is to never lose!
5. Better to fight for something in life than die for nothing!
6. The mission is all important! Think about standards rules later.
7. Grab’m by the nose and kick’m in the pants!
8. Never fight a battle unless you will gain by winning!
9. Never let the enemy pick the battle site!
10. Select leaders for accomplishment and not for affection….

quote:

Originally posted by Hyperion:
Dude, just because the death counts are different doesn't mean there aren't many similarities between the two.

Dude, just because there's a public opposition to the both wars doesn't mean they're anything alike.