Also pataloco, there, you're wrong, it's just many people in the right wing see acknowledging ones mistakes as always blaming america, and understanding and correcting a mistake as "cutting and running".

quote:

Also pataloco, there, you're wrong, it's just many people in the right wing see acknowledging ones mistakes as always blaming america, and understanding and correcting a mistake as "cutting and running".

Coach, wasn't it you with the bunny with the pancake on it's head? Where is that? I need it.

Hyperion, ya like word play...I don't. I say what I mean and I don't try to twist phrases....especially to inflame. Seems to be a past time of yours.

I don't even bother referencing historical "liberals" or "conservatives". Values and principles of the politicians change over the years, what was once thought "liberal" is now conservative.
-- What was one of the main founding goals of the Republican Party? Who founded the EPA?

Notice I said "conservative and liberal" not "republican and democrat" so you're last point is invalid. Also I don't try to inflame people with word play, you're just seeing in that what you want to, sorry but I'm not trying to twist phrases or inflame anyone.

Hyperion, I am absolutely amazed that you can say with a straight face that the Left Wing of America are not the advocates of a policy of “cut and run” when in the same breadth you tell me that the U.S. should indeed do precisely that because you (as well as the other Left Wingers of America) believe it was a mistake for the U.S. to invade Iraq given what the leaders of both our national parties as well as every nation throughout the world knew to be true at the time and after the U.S. (not France or Germany) was itself a victim of WMDs on 911. Your saying this is akin to a parent who commits to have children and then proceeds to “cut and run” upon discovering the unpleasant aspects of child rearing, especially when the child reaches his or her terrible two’s. I call that parent’s behavior “cut and run” and if, by chance, you should have a different understanding or meaning of that term, I sure would like to know what the hell it is.

I assume that you have always believed it was a mistake for the U.S. to invade Iraq notwithstanding what the world knew to be true at the time and it is ironic that you should mention FDR to support your argument that the Left Wing are not advocates of “cut and run” and “Blame America First.” The fact is that throughout the 1930s, FDR sat helplessly in the White House as he witnessed various totalitarian regimes (“fascists”) act aggressively toward their own respective populations as well as their neighbors. He saw Japan invade China, Mussolini invade Ethiopia and Hitler invade the Rhineland. He heard Hitler renounce the Treaty of Versailles. Throughout all of this, he was essentially hand-tied by those in America unwilling to recognize the threat that these fascist regimes were to world peace. Indeed, to the delight of those whom the left wing of today seeks to emulate, he heard Chamberlain gleefully declare “peace in our time” when Chamberlain and those re represented agreed to appease Hitler by delivering Czechoslovakia to Germany as atonement for the Allied Power’s mistreatment of Germany under the Treaty of Versailles. (I wonder whether it was from Chamberlain that the Left Wing of America of today first learned to view the world through a “Blame America First” lens??) Tojo used that indifference to attack the US at Pearl Harbor and FDR decided to go after Germany even though that nation never attacked us.

Hyperion, the lessons of history provide clear and convincing evidence that a policy of “cut and run” and “Blame Anybody But the Fascists” is the best way to inducing the fascists to wage war. At least the Americans that FDR had to deal with could be excused for their beliefs in appeasement and reproachment of the fascists. The Left Wing of America cannot be excused especially after realizing by what happened on 911 that there are fascists in the Middle East who hate us because we allow our wives and daughters to get college degrees and for our support of Israel (I wonder how soon it will be before we hear from the Left Wing that we should appease the Islamic radicals for our “errors” by delivering Israel to the fascists of the Middle East??) and who are willing to send WMDs into our cities and die for Islam so that they can get to see their Allah and have sex with 79 virgins in heaven. Historians tell us that employing that strategy only served to reinforce Hitler and Mussolini’s assessment of the Allied Powers as weak and lacking in resolve and was used by these fascists as a means to persuade their generals into believing that the world would continue to ignore similar acts of aggression committed elsewhere. Tojo used that indifference to attack the US at Pearl Harbor.

Thus, I regard as baseless your attempt to explain the Left Wing’s conduct by saying that “we simply know when we have made a wrong decision and want to correct it and are willing to admit that the US has many errors and done many wrong things, just like any other country.” Given what we know from history and what happened on 911, the Left Wing does not hold a crystal ball by which it can pontificate about world order, “wrong decisions” or how to correct perceived “errors” when they view the world through a “Blame America First” lens and employ the time-tested principals of “cut and run” as their only strategy when it comes to dealing with the Islamic fascists.
And throughout all of this, our nation is blessed and honored with having our men and women in uniform (every one of them heroes in my book) who are willing to lay down their lives for people like you and me and who appear not to mind the fact that some of them have died and will continue to die because their enemy believes that if they can resist long enough the Left Wing of America just might get the chance to see their dream come true.

One other point to ponder: The mainstream (myself included) know full well that this country is not perfect and is capable of making mistakes like any other nation. The CRITICAL difference that separates the Left Wing of America from other Americans is that the Left Wing honest-to-God believe that any misfortune seen on the world stage was either caused by U.S policy or would not have occurred but for US policy. Thus, when a calamity occurs anywhere around the world, the Left Wing of America "hunts" for an "error" of US policy that justifies them to conclude that the bad event was caused by that policy.

I leave you with this: On December 24, 2004 over 200,000 people died from a tsunami that originated in Southeast waters. I said to my friends and colleagues that within two weeks, we would be hearing from the Left Wing to the effect that those deaths were somehow caused by US policy. Lo and behold, within 48 hours (not two weeks), we heard from the Left Wing who said with a straight face that if the US had paid for and deployed detectors in and around the Indian ocean rim just as it did for the Pacific rim, those 200,000 people would not have perished. If you think I am wrong about this, just google the subject and you will see blogs and blogs where the Left Wing say this.

I'm sorry anton but your assertion that the left wing blames everything on america is completely baseless, what you found were a couple of loud annoying people, not the majority of the left wing. Also I'm pretty divided on the Iraq war myself, I'm not this radical anti-war activist, I simply believe the war was handled badly from not only a military but a political point of veiw, and I'm sorry but you also forget that the anti-war movement was NOT just a left wing movement in the 1930's sorry to burst your bubble. If you're rampant demonization of liberalism as cowards and terrorist sympathizers and appeasers continues, when it has been conclusively proven that NONE of the hijackers or their organization had ANYTHING to do with Iraq, and that the islamic fundamentalists who actually pose a threat to world peace are in Iran and pakistan, in case you forgot, Iraq was a secular government, it didn't even LIKE al-queda, and al-queada believed people like saddam were infidels as well for implementing a secular government! So don't try linking the Iraq war to 9/11 of even the islamic fundamentalist movement because you're thinking of the wrong country.

Hyperion, you contradict yourself (yet again) when you say that my assessment of the Left Wing of America is “completely baseless” and then in the same sentence you say that my references to the conduct of those who sit on that side of the aisle are just “a couple of loud annoying people.” I could write pages and pages and pages about these “loud annoying people.” For example, I could write about the Left Wing professors who teach their “Blame America First” agenda to attentive college students. I could discuss the Left Wing students of Columbia University (our budding new crop of neo-fascists) who just recently threatened the life of a guest speaker who wanted to discuss the Minuteman who monitor the flood of illegal immigrants crossing our southern borders. I could discuss a demonstration just several days ago in Oregon where U.S. soldiers were publically burned in effigy. There is simply not enough time in the day to write about all the instances when a principal (if not the sole) ingredient that motivates the thinking of the Far Left has been their twisted, sick belief that the US is somehow the cause (or at least the primary cause) of all things bad that afflicts mankind. You delude yourself if you think otherwise – but in any event, you are wrong when you glibly dismiss my assessment as “completely basis.” And you fool yourself if you really think that the Left Wing is occupied by just a couple of them.

You say that you are a member of the Left Wing of America and then you say that you are “pretty divided on the Iraq war myself.” I do not know what you mean when you say this. Simply saying that mistakes were made is not saying anything. The Left Wing’s problem is not when they say the word “mistake” but what they say should be done given that mistakes were made. Proceeding on the premise that the US was correct in its decision to invade Iraq (something that you appear to agree with) and now that we are there, the Left Wing bring nothing to the table other than their vitriolic clap trap of immediate withdrawal. I call that “cut and run.” What do you call that?? I know that the Left Wing gets an allergic reaction when that term is used against them but that is what they advocate and stand for. That is their rallying cry. I note that the moderate Democrats and Republicans including the Right Wing of America do NOT advocate that position. Only the Left Wing does. Why is that, one would ask? It is because of all the political spectrums that characterize this great country, it is the Left Wing that is unique in being unprincipled, intellectually corrupt and bereft of constructive criticism of the kind one gets from the rest of America.

While it is certainly true that the 911 Islamic Fundamentalists who hijacked planes to kill Americans had nothing to do with Iraq (for the reasons you give, amongst others), nevertheless what the Left Wing does not understand is that after 911, the terms of international discussion and debate changed irrevocably. Before 911, the US could wait until all the “i’s” have been dotted and the “t’s” have been crossed before the US decides to use military force to redress a perceived threat to our national security (and without having to get the consent of France). In pre-911 terms, that means the US could afford to wait until another Pearl Harbor takes place before using military force. Not so today. Unfortunately, the disease and filth known as the Islamic Fundamentals have chosen to hide within sympathetic and supporting civilian populations. I refer you to the post made by the Gunny which started this tread in the fist place for an understanding about the deadly, pernicious effects that result when a society is co-opted by groups such as the Islamic Fundamentalists.

And my bubble has not been busted by your comments about the antiwar movement in the 1930s. A large part of that movement included the “Isolationist Republicans” who believed that the US should not get entangled in European affairs. However, like I said in my last post on this topic, the antiwar movement of the 1930s can be forgiven for acting indifferently in dealing with the fascists of their times and for believing that appeasement and reproachment could be an effective tool in dealing with those fascists. Now, however, we have the benefit of history as well as the lessons of 911. At least the Republicans of today have learned from what happened in the 1930s. Not so with the Left Wing.

Hyperion -- I am not the one who lives in the wrong country. It is the Left Wing of America who are the ones who live in their own selfish little world by engaging in nonconstructive conduct and dialogue that accomplishes nothing except to give aid and comfort to the Islamic Fundamentals and based on a “Blame America First” approach to dealing with the post-911 issues that we face today.

A few simple responses,
1. You're missing the point that iraq had nothing to do with the fundamentalists as it was secular nation the fundamentalists hated.
2. I'm sorry but you're entire post is based off assumptions, ad homenim attacks, and is edging on simple flaming.
3. When you can support our president in illegal searches and imprisonment without fair trial and say some rowdy students are the next generation of neo-fascists you need to get a reality check.
4. Stop disrespecting the memory of the victims of 9/11 by using it in your idiotic tirade against the left, there has been absolutely nothing connecting iraq to 9/11 so please stop using such bombastic meaningless terms such as "a pre/post 9/11 world"

Your responses are not quite so simple as you would like to believe and do not answer me except in vague generalities

May I remind you that it was not the moderate Democrats or the Republicans or the Right Wing that prevented a speaker from speaking at Columbia University. it was students who -- to a person -- would regard themselves as Left Wing and proud of it. I call those students "fascists." It was also the Left Wing in Portland Oregon who just recently burned soldiers in effigy. It was also the Left Wing that organized several demonstrations in San Francisco opposing Bush's decision to invade Afghanistan shortly after 911. I am not inventing this stuff.

You talk about "imprisonment without a fair trial" and by doing so, you raise yet another reason why the Left Wing is so fundamentally off base in its views. Without me getting into specifics on this subject due to lack of time, perhaps you can answer me this question: during WWII, thousands of POWs were located in prison camps under U.S. control and supervision. Is it your belief that these POWs were entitled to a "fair trial" prior to the cessation of hostilities with Germany and Japan?? I hope that you are not going to tell me that the POWs of WWII are true prisoners of war and therefore not entitled to a trial until the war ended, whereas, the prisoners captured by our armed forces in Afghanistan and Iraq were not captured in the context of a war. I hope you are not going to perpetuate this Left Wing apology in such fashion. If there is any difference between now and then it is this: "911". The Left Wing continues to look at the world with "pre-911" blinders and criticizes everyone else who believe that we now live in a "post-911" world where enemy soldiers marching under the banner of a foreign flag have been replaced by "enemy combatants" who do not wear a uniform and who will gladly kill Americans as the sure and best way to see Allah in heaven and to fornicate with a bevy of virgins. Thus, today, the Left Wing using pre-911 blinders, excoriate our military for killing "innocent civilians" in the Middle East. I wonder if you would be so kind as to tell me whether the Left Wing, if they could roll back time, would have prosecuted Colonel Doolittle and the other pilots who killed "innocent civilians" in Tokyo, Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki??

Using the benefit of hindsight, I agree that the Iraqi regime was secular (albeit fascists) and did not take kindly to the Islamic Fundamentalists. But us saying this is beside the point. Even you agree that it was correct for the U.S. to have invaded Iraq (please see you earlier post) and now that we are there, what constructive alternative does the Left Wing bring to the table?? If it is something other that "Cut and Run" I am waiting with baited breadth for you to tell me what that might be.

BTW, I am not making "ad hominum" attacks. I simply and fundamentally disagree with the Left Wing's views and not with them as persons.

As to "disrespecting the memory of the victims of 9/11", you conveniently forget that it is the Left Wing who have members who honest-to-God believe that 911 was an "inside job." Cindy Sheehan (who I do think is mentally disturbed as a person) and Michael Moore, both regarded as left Wing icons, have publicly taken this view many times in the past. So called professor Ward Churchill of Colorado openly refers to those who died in the two towers as "Nazis" and "terrorists." Again, this stuff is not coming from the Moderate Democrats, the Republicans or the Right Wing. It is coming form the Left Wing.

1. Cindy Shehhan is one of those outspoken people I spoke about, also Michael Moore is a friggen comedian for god sakes, not a real political man!
2. As for the prisonors, I'm not talking at all about the people from Iraq of afghanistan, I'm talking about the people in the US who were put in guantanamo bay and the secret CIA prisons, civillians who were put their, not enemy combatants. These are not to be looked at as being like German POW's but the japanese internment camps, which were a blot on our nations proud history to this date.

3. It is not at all hindsight to see that they were secular and that they and the fundamentalists hated eachother, we've know that since the 90's at least. Don't dismiss that so easily. Also "cut and run" has many negative connotations, and while i am divided on the issue I do see just as much proof on the side advocating a pull out, just because we made a mistake and invaded a country based on bad info and outright lies, doesn't mean we have to stay there just because we went in, just because we made a mistake doesn't mean we have to finish making the mistake. (on the other hand I do believe saddam was an evil dictatorial bastard and I enjoy immensely the fact that he is pushing up daisies, I'm just saying I can see both sides.
4. You talk about these "fascists" how the heck is burning effigies and marching in any way shape or form fascist? Ignoring the constitution with the patriot act is democratic and good and marching and burning effigies is fascist, am I getting this right?
5. And i just don't get the constant connections you make between the war in iraq and islamic fundamentalism, the taliban in afghanistan was most definitily involved with them (hence why I support the war in afghanistan fully), but there is no evidence whatsoever (and quite a bit to the contrary) that Iraq had to do with islamic fundamentalism (which is why I'm divided on Iraq)

Notwithstanding your efforts to distance yourself from the likes of Cindy Sheehan and Michael Moore by labeling these blowhards as comedians, the unfortunate and indisputable fact is that one and only one group of Americans applaud them as they proceed to condemn the US at every opportunity: the Left Wing of America. I do not see or hear any moderate Democrats, Republicans or the Right Wing standing with these two morons (who I fondly call "The Imbeciles of America"). The same is true for Ward Churchill who can be seen speaking at various rallies which are attended by the members of the Left Wing of America. I could also mention a plethora of other Left Wingers including those who dwell in Hollywood (Barbara Streisand and Sean Penn are just two names that come to mind) and a good many of the faculties of our universities and colleges but I would be gilding the lily in making my point. Yes, Hyperion, you can try to dismiss these people as “comedians” because you have no other way to insulate the Left Wing from these morons, but any objective assessment supports the conclusion that it is the Left Wing of America and not the other segments of our political spectrum that sympathize with these icons. Of course, I am quite confident that CS and MM would object by you calling them “comedians,” but the plain, hard fact is the people who applaud their speeches (i.e., the Left Wing) would NOT label them comedians.

Now that I understand that your reference to the alleged mistreatment of prisoners was intended to refer to persons captured in the U.S., I believe you are shifting the focus of discussion that has its origins in the initial post made by the Gunny. The alleged terrorists captured within our shores do indeed present a different and interesting topic for discussion that perhaps should be the subject of another thread. Allow me to suggest that a non-citizen enemy combatant who is apprehended in the US. (assuming there is probable cause to believe that he or she committed or was about to commit an act of terror and otherwise satisfies the definition of the term "enemy combatant") has very few rights as per recent decisions of the Supreme Court. Putting that discussion aside for now, the Left Wing continue to insist that Gitmo be shut down and that all of its invited guests be tried in a US federal court or released as if these “POWs” have a constitutional right to a trial or to be released prior to the cessation of hostilities. If German and Japanese POWs were not given trials or otherwise released from prison camps until Germany and Japan surrendered, I do not know of any basis why the foreign enemy combatants who are of Middle East persuasion should expect to be treated any differently.

Your reference to how Japanese Americans were sent to Japanese concentration camps only serves to reconfirm my assessment of the Left Wing of America and their “Blame America First” assessment of world events. Let’s be clear about this: after we were attacked at Pearl Harbor there is no question that the U.S. (acting under a Democratic president for what that is worth though I believe that a Republican president would have sanctioned the same kind of action) forcibly detained Japanese-Americans who did nothing wrong other that to have Japanese blood in their veins. No question that was wrong. But ONLY the Left Wing of America uses that episode to indite the US for what it is now doing. Today, the US does not incarcerate any suspected terrorist because they have Muslim blood in their veins. Only those persons suspected of engaging in terrorist acts are confined. But the Left Wing fail to see this critical distinction because their "Blame America First" lens blinds them to these realities. After all, if the US is killing “innocent civilians” who happen to live in a Bagdad neighborhood infested with insurgents seeking to kill our heroes in the military, it is not too much of a stretch for them to believe that the US is “rounding up” Muslim Americans for purposes of throwing them into “Muslim-American Concentration Camps.”

Your inability to see the difference between “pre-911" America and “post-911" America is not surprising since it is typical of those who describe themselves as Left Wingers. Nevertheless, things did change in how we see ourselves as secure and in the job that we have as Americans in dealing with a new brand of warfare never before experienced by this country. The left Wing do not understand (and are incapable of understanding as far as I can determine) that the “pre-911" rules of engagement, including the past, failed policies of appeasement and reproachment, in dealing with the Islamic fascists no longer have validity today – not that they ever did before 911 but at least the killing caused by the failed policy took place in Europe, Japan and Korea.

Ok as I'm tired I'll try and keep this short, you're keen to point out loonies on the left, but what about loonies on the right, lets take a look shall we?
1. Rush Limbaugh: A man who has said that styrofoam is biodegradable, there are more acres of forrest today than when columbus arrived, and that feminists believe all heterosexual sex it rape. He also made fun of AIDS victims...lets here that again, he made fun of people suffering from aids. I'm sorry but SOUTH PARK barely touches some of the stuff he spews out without a care.
2. Ann Coulter: A woman who has not only accused liberals in america of "hating america more than islamic terrorists" and also happens to have insulted 9/11 victims as well is me Cindy Sheehan.
3. Bill O'Reily, A man who cannot go through one show without making personal attacks on people, and I don't mean intellectual ad-hominem attacks, I mean like grade school insults and shouting matches, and don't get me started on his lies and idiocy on the matter of the massacre at malmady.
4. Pat Bucchanan also makes this list for saying that AIDS is nature taking horrible revenge on homosexuals.
If you want to pick on loonies, I've got more where that came from buddy. These people are looked on, only by the right, as legitamate political voices and news sources. As bad as what sheehan has said (and moore isn't even in the same magnitude) they pale in comparison to these scumbags. When you can tell me, with a straight face, that someone who says that gay people "declared war on nature" and aids is vengence for that, and compared homosexuality in our society to the third frigging reich (buchanan did this) is not a biggoted wackjob, then you need a frigging medal if you can possibly pull that off.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Hyperion,

There's loonies everywhere and more than enough to go around as far as I'm concerned. Yes, there are plenty on all sides in the politics of this nation. Always have been and always will be. They're all just talking heads in my book and I certainly don't lose sleep over anything that either side is spouting off at at any given time.

Personally, I don't agree with some of your reference points, such as events that transpired during WWII. As far as I am concerned they did what they HAD to do considering all the events of the day. You brought up the Japanese internement camps. Well, I think we showed the world that we learned our lesson from that blot on our nations proud history to date, in that we didn't round up each and every muslim here and do the same with them after 9/11. There were plenty of folks that would have eagerly pitched in to help do just that.

That we have detained people of interest and placed tham in Gitmo? Hey, if they were documented law abiding citizens and hadn't attracted attention to themselves by acting in a suspicious nature, they wouldn't be where they are. I'm pleased that they are off the streets and not actively engaged in terrorist activities, proven or otherwise. Are there innocents in Gitmo? perhaps. Thats for a military tribunal to sort out. If they are totally innocent, it'll all come out in the end. And no, they do not have nor rate the same protections or rights as a US citizen. You may on the other hand, think differently, but hey thats allowed.

As for Ms. Sheehan and her activites? I normally don't speak ill of a grieving parent, but I honestly believe her son is turning over in his grave with her actions. There is an unwritten rule of common decency that you do not protest against the President during a funeral of one of our nations fallen warriors. That is not the time nor place for that. It is pure disrespect to our nation, to the family and individual whose life was lost. I don't agree with her actions, but concede that she has every right to act however she pleases to act. She just better hope someone doesn't get it into thier head to act upon certain feelings that she is generating from her actions or activities.

The war in Iraq was destined to happen. You seem to have omitted the very fact that the UN passed resolution, after resolution, deadline after deadline concerning the worlds fears and concern that he was or had obtained WMD. Do I need to go back and post the resolutions along with the timeline to bring you back up to speed on past (recent) events in history?

There was more than enough ample evidence from our information of his activities and purchases of material that left no doubt in the worlds eyes. President Bush did what was needed. Now I don't know what state you are in, but I know for a fact that one can bury very large items in the Iraqi desert and no-one, but no-one will ever find them in a hundred years. I've been there, I've experienced those vast areas in which one could cover up an entire city, much less a few thousand railroad cars and come back in six months and not be able to locate it. In order to prove that he never had WMD, one would have to dig up every square foot of that entire country, so we eventually had to stop looking and focus on more important matters such as rebuilding all the infrastructure for the people of that nation. We know for a fact that large convoys made thier way into Syria before the war. We even followed those shipments to places as far as Somolia before we lost them. He was receiving prohibited material from Russia, North Korea, and even China.

We located stockpiles of a variety of nerve gas and the mobile laboratories capable of producing VX in large quantities. One doesn't need large quantities of VX to wipe out a city. Geez, all one needs is a few ounces of that stuff. Were you not aware of any of this? Or do you chose to ignore most of these FACTS when speaking about Iraq and the President? This is why the vast majority in here are reacting in the manner that we do. We know, we have been there, we have seen this with our own eyes, many times having to look through the eyepieces of a gas mask for hours at a time. You have no clue what its like to have to don and wear a set of protective clothing that weighs close to thirty pounds in hundred plus degree temperatures for hours on end. All the time worrying.... does my suit have a hole it it when I snagged it diving into the bunker or climbing into the Humvee? Or watching your buddy that accidently injected his atropine into his leg while donning his suit and the missles are falling and he's there flopping around like a fish out of water? Saddam had VX and various other kinds of nerve gas. He even had tons of friggin mustard gas. That crap was outlawed after WWI, yet there it was sitting there leaking all over the place.

Has President Bush made mistakes? Oh yeah. But give him credit where its due, he has admitted his mistakes publicly, and taken steps to correct what was correctable. Some things one cannot fix no matter how hard one tries. He ain't perfect, but in my book President Bush is one of the best Presidents elected to office in decades. This coming from a true blue republican (me) that actually liked Wild Bill Clinton. President Clinton was a very charismatic individual and he came across very well, up to the point where Monica got introduced to the nation As far as I'm concerned getting a BJ ain't no big thing, but it sure didn't do our countries image any good with the rest of the world, so I do hold that against him.

first off my comments on the wackos of the right we to simply prove that both sides have their share of wackos as you said, which anton seems not to think. Also I don't believe "being suspicious" does not make it right for you to be rounded up and taken away. These are documented american citizens, arrested on mere suspicious and often just circumstantial evidence, and stripped of their rights garrunteed to them under the constitution. These aren't militants shooting AK-47 and RPG-7's at us, they aren't firing mortar rounds at us, these are normal people, not "enemy combatants." Not to mention the use of torture on these civillians. Also of course we've learned since then, it's great we haven't randomly started rounding up muslims like we did with the japanese, and I'm glad the wacko's who advocate that kind of thing in this day and age are not allowed to do this. Oh and the fact that the government put them in jail is in no way proof that they weren't law abiding documented citizens, that hasn't stopped the government on countless occasions. Also protesting the president, and the funeral of a soldier don't have to do with eachother and I fail to see at all how it is wrong. Also I'm skeptical at what kinds of weapons he had, most reports I've looked at stated that the facts were that he had very little if any in the way of the stuff he had 15-20 years ago, I'm not sure if I trust those fact as I have heard many facts and reports contradicting those, so I'm gonna try and not pass judgement as there is so much conflicting data. And I very much disagree, in my opinion he is quite a bad president, but I am not basing that soley on Iraq so much as his in my opinion attrocious economic and social policies. And finnally once again I say that I am not decidedly against the iraq war, I am against the treatment of gitmo detainees and I strongly dislike our president, but I am not strongly anti-war, I believe both sides have compelling arguments.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Hyperion,

I knew there was going to come a time when you might make mention of the Right Wing and I can understand your wanting to do that.

When I made my assessment regarding the people who occupy that side of the aisle, I took into account the positions taken by the icons of the Far Right and the Left as well as those in between. Prior to 911, I regarded their differing views as significant but not threatening and somewhat benign. I refer to their differing views regarding such things as the right to abortions, religious tolerance, federal spending, discrimination in or out of the workplace etc. etc. etc. As significant as those differing viewpoints are, there is one overriding matter that trumps all others and that is the security of the United States. In my opinion and the opinion of many others in this country, nothing else is a close second in terms of importance.

911 brought out the best of Americans but also exposed one segment, the Left Wing, as sympathizers and apologists for the “Peace Loving” Islamic Fascists. Unfortunately, their pre-911 biases and their “Blame America First” approach to addressing world problems blinded them to the realities of the new kind of enemy that threatens us and from appreciating the ways the US is required to wage the war against this enemy.

Prior to 911, our nation’s wars were conducted in a relatively orderly fashion. Our enemies wore the uniforms of sovereign fascists’ governments. The wars occurred on the orders of these governments. During the course of the wars, it was generally understood and agreed that if a non-uniformed enemy was caught in the US, that person would be convicted and executed solely on the basis of the fact that he was in this country in civilian clothes. It made no difference that the person actually sabotaged anything. If he was caught in this country out of uniform and after a trial on very limited issues that person was presumed a saboteur and executed. (Witness the plight of German saboteurs who were caught in Long island NY during WWII). POWs caught in a theater of war were placed in camps and released only after hostilities ceased. POWs were imprisoned with very few rights. It was taken for granted that the wars were conducted on clearly defined battle grounds where most of the killing occurred and that it would be necessary for the US to attack enemy civilian populations in order to prosecute the war to a successful conclusion from our point of view. (Witness what the US did to various cities in Japan and Germany during WWII; BTW, you did not answer my question whether you would charge these pilots with war crimes)) Finally, the killing occurred outside our borders.

All of these rules of war changed on 911 in a sudden and dramatic fashion. Our new enemy does not wear a uniform, hides in supportive and sympathetic civilian population centers and uses modern means and methods to plan for and to execute attacks against us. Unlike EVERY OTHER segment of our society, there is one and only one segment that is blind to this post-911 reality: the Left Wing of America. I am not saying that the Left Wing were un-traumatized by what happened. They were. But as the US has tried to respond to this new threat coming from a more virulent form of a fascist enemy than what we experienced in the past -- fascists that come in many flavors but all of whom having Middle East origins --, we hear nonconstructive claptrap coming out of the mouths of the Left Wing. We hear this from no other group. Rather than offer constructive comments and alternatives to our government’s response to this new kind of war and using pre-911 anti-US blinders, they believe that the Islamic Fundamentalists who attacked us on 911 did so in response to long-standing imperial aggression by the US including but not limited to its support of Israel. Thus, the Left Wing believe that the Islamic Fundamentalists are really “peace loving” victims of US oppression. They view any action on the part of the US to apprehend enemy combatants as the killing of innocent civilians -- as if our heroes in uniform are members of a police force required to read “Miranda Warnings” before proceeding to apprehend, kill or interrogate an enemy combatant. They are so bankrupt in their ideas that as soon as they learn that the Iraqi war is not going as nicely as they would like (a good many believing that we should not have been in that country at all), they adopt a “Cut and Run” approach to the conduct of the war. On virtually every front that the US tries to deal with this new threat form these fascists, the Left Wing takes bizarre, irrational positions. Thus, to them, no war is just and appeasement and reproachment is our only option in dealing with the "peace loving" Islamic Fascists. What is worse, they try to normalize and legitimize the Islamic Fundamentalists as mainstream, essentially indistinguishable from other segments that dwell within a society. They see no difference between a marine killing an insurgent in Bagdad and an insurgent's beheading of an Iraqi civilian.

Given the events of 911 and our new kind of enemy, I find that the Left Wing’s views are outrageous and give aid and comfort to our enemy. This is true for no other segment of our society. No other segment of our society does this. Not one.

And I have no problem with Sean Hanity, Bill O’Reilly and others covering the news with a right of center perspective given the Left Wing’s control of the media and its agenda. I applaud their insistence that their Left Wing guests answer questions put to them rather than give non-responsive answers.

My god are you thick, I'm tired of arguing with you if you are going to accuse me of being a sympathizer and apologist for islamic extremists, sorry that is a very obvious insult and I'm sorry but you've just proven yourself incredibly ignorant. Your belief that only the left wing does bad things and everyone else seems to be in the right is not only uninformed but insulting. yo've also shown a great deal of ignorance in the fact that you said that what we are facing is something new. It's not new at all. We've faced insurrgencies like this many times before, in vietnam and in the phillipines as just some examples. And other countries have battled insurrections like this as well, this is not a new thing, sorry. Also you're idea of the left wings "control of the media" and "agenda" is not only uninformed and wrong, but rather paranoid as well, I'm sure the late Senator Mcarthy would be proud. I'm sorry if this came off as vitriolic, but I don't take kindly to be called an apologist for terrorists, it's completely wrong and very rude.