Here is an interesting article for anyone thinking about joining the military,

http://www.counterpunch.org/jw04052006.html

Excellent media spin on a single PTRP platoon, all hearsay, and no definitive fact. There is zero evidence defined or revealed that the soldier's cause of death was from malice or brutality. If it is a medical malpractice issue, then the doctors should shoulder the burden, and will.
To say Drill Sergeants somewhere in the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines aren't overbearing and on a power trip is asinine. It is a hasty generalization designed to inflict maximum damage on the image of the military. Thats like saying all CEOs are out to screw their employees out of everything and skip out, like Enron. There will always be scumbag Drills, but your leftist column only identifies it as common practice. Unfortunately, a soldier died. And I feel that as devastating, and terrible. He was no casualty from war, but I will concede he was a casualty of a broken system. That is not the Basic Training System. PTRP System, is a different animal, and it is indeed not functioning the way it is supposed to. The investigation is not complete, and all fingers are to be pointed by this CounterPunch.org group at Drill Sergeants for abuse, and malice. Not that a soldier died, by unknown causes at this time, in his bunk, discovered by another soldier, who called Mommy, and not for Medical Aid.
Then we hear of an elaborate scheme to right the wrongs, where no one helped. All Congressional advice, was to begin an inquiry through official channels, and proper protocol not governed by the military. It didn't happen either. But a soldier dying in "his presumed sleep, as a possible reaction to Fenatyl" is no significance to abuse or maltreatment. This is a witch hunt to paint military training as some form of masochistic torture chamber. Not that a soldier died tragically from unknown causes in PTRP Battery, Bravo, Fort Sill, Oklahoma, with possible relation to failed medical treatment and drug reaction. That has nothing to do with a Drill Sergeant. Until the facts are all out on the table, this is pure vitriol spat from the leftist iconoclast regime in an attempt to hijack public opinion, and sway it toward its own political agendas and views.

You can look at the article from many different angles. But to me (and I witnessed this when I was in basic because I had to be wheel chaired to the CTMC for an ancle injury) it shows exactly what it is trying to show, you are a prisoner of basic until the higher powers let you go and your time spent there (which by the way can drasticly exceed "9 weeks") will be a very degraded quality of living as described in the article (ie everything is a privilage, soda, cell phones etc just like in prison) even if no one had died as a result its still BS. As soon as there is a medical problem they should be catorgorized out ASAP and during the out processing they should be treated as a civilian. As soon as a trainee is no longer capable of training the training should end in its entierty, what purpose is there for someone in a wheel chair to go to any kind of formation or have any kind of interaction what so ever with a drill sgt. Thats the angle that I was looking at it from. I saw this same type of behavior from drills when I was at ft leonard wood. The bottom line is he should have had someone pick him up and get a lawyer and do it from HOME not from prison, then it wouldent matter if it dragged out for a year as long as you were out of the unharmonious atmosphere.

Weather or not the actual death was a result of the doctor or the drill is irrelavant, its the treatment and atmosphere in general that someone joining needs to be aware of and this article hit the nail on the head.

and when the facts do get published, will it make any difference to you? would you make a public retraction? would that website make one? I seriously doubt it.

Everyone in the military knows there is a Chain of Command. Personnel are obligated and protected by the Uniformed Code of Military Justice, Article 138, Reference b.) to complain and request redress of grievances against action of their Commanders. Additionally, any member may petition or present any grievance to any Member of Congress or the Inspector General under 10 United States Code 1034, Reference (e). Failure to do these things, is viewed as inaction, failure to act is acceptance. At no time is a soldier required to obey an unlawful order. Just make sure you know what the law says, because civilian laws do not apply in all cases, and jurisdiction of a local enforcement authority is outlined in the Military Manual for Courts-Martial. If no grievances were filed, or complaints made through the proper channels, about maltreatment and malice, abuse, etc. There is no reasonable proof that any of such action happened. It is pure hearsay, and cannot be adjudicated at any level. Its called a legal system, it protects Whistleblowers, and is an open-door policy. If there were these issues, why is it coming out in a story about how Fort Sill killed a soldier? It is a complete deviation from the headline, to attract attention. Following the rules and doing what you are told is expected, but ignorance and complacency in the face of gross negligence, and failure to report it; is just as bad. How can the issue be addressed if complaints weren't made? An investigation was underway, so something was being done about it. Drill Sergeants were relieved, so it was being handled. Why does it come out in a soldier's death story? Leftist media spin lashing out when they get a chance.

There is still your ignorant assumption that you have some form of rights outside of what the military gives you by DoD Directive and the UCMJ. You didn't get soda? Good. Its known to be unhealthy by millions of medical reports. No cell phones? Fine. Those are the rules. You aren't there to chit-chat on the phone, you are there to train. You break the rules, and cry about getting "smoked." If you didn't want to get in trouble, don't break the rules, or don't get caught. For the last time, that was not a BASIC TRAINING. It was a PTRP. Formations are for accountability. I can muster whoever, and whenever I need to. Just because you are in a wheelchair doesn't mean you are exempt from formation. That defeats the ONE TEAM, ONE FIGHT mentality you were supposed to learn, and it violates the UCMJ Article 86. If the person, was, or is incapable of attending a formation, it would be so noted, and they would be accounted for. All others capable would be there, standing tall.

Wow, thats all I can say is wow, using the UCMJ to justify abuse. The problem is the line that drills cant cross is in the horizon and people that are trying to recover dont need the drills BS, even though the drill is probably within his rights by the military standard and thats the problem is the military that enables the drill or any sgt to act the way they do. When you are in a basic training atmosphere or PTRP its not like I can go down to the JAG office and even if you can most are not aware of thoes rights. When you are injured there is no more one fight, one team BS, that individual is trying to recover and the last thing they need is a hostile enviornment. I will agree the fact that they used a death story is slightly dramatic but it still ilistrates the main idea of military abuse in basic/PTRP. It is a living nightmare for someone in PTRP because there is no end in sight and the hostile enviornment remains.

I understand the idea of team work even though you will probably disagree, but when my health (mental or phsyical) is at risk the little BS game is over and when you resume the game with people who are injured thats abuse, it doesnt matter what article of UCMJ you quote, because the bottem line is its inhumane.

Its almost like the military operates against the constitution. I believe in the constitution and would fight for it. But I could give 2 shits about UCMJ and I bet I could puruse through the UCMJ and find a hand full of things that are unconstitional, I have read arguments that the UCMJ itself is unconstituional

At no time did I justify "abuse" with the UCMJ. Denying one a soda or a cell phone is NOT abuse. It is not inhumane. Denying someone water and nourishment would be. A cell phone is not critical to your survival, nor is soda.
Secondly, there is no substantial evidence presented at any time, by any medical professional on the progression of any injuries, nor continued injuries sustained while in the care of the Drill Sergeants. The fact remains, the medical care is not the Drill Sergeant's responsibility. We are not talking about people that are invalids. We are talking about people on crutches, and wheelchairs. Meaning they have mobility and the ability to attend a formation. So your point is moot. Your claim of not being able to go see JAG is complete bullshit. Open-door policy and the ability to address the chain of command is clearly briefed, as required by law. Fear of the Drill Sergeant is crap as well. You don't want to incur his wrath for reporting incidents that may be abusive, well, it might be worth it to rectify a problem. That isn't the easy way out, so probably not your cup of tea. Such as, a Drill Sergeant (who was relieved) for kicking the crutches out from under a recruit. You can't fix problems if no one knows about it.

Lastly, if you believe that the Military Manual for Courts-Martial and the UCMJ are unconstituional, I recommend you address that issue with the US Supreme Court. As all violations of the UCMJ are Federal crimes, its sole and apparent realm is that of Federal Courts. If you believe it to be wrong, than do something about it. A functioning regulation that ties into all branches' policies, directives, and publications, as well as U.S. Code, for such time as the UCMJ, to be unconstitutional is entirely obtuse. You would have a better chance convincing me the Constitution itself is unconstitutional. If you believe it to be unethical, then that needs to be addressed with the U.S. Dept. of Defense Standards of Conduct Office-Joint Ethics Regulation. Then again, that is a realm far beyond your reach, and might be too much homework to do, to actually know what you are talking about. It also helps, I am a Federal agency, that researches local, state, Federal laws, U.S. Code, and the UCMJ on a daily basis. So, I'm well-versed in my area of expertise.

hmmm perhaps he shoulda joined the cub scouts?

The very nature of the atmosphere and conditions of basic and PTRP are contrary to liberty and the pursuit of happieness. The constitution does not state bare bones requirements to live (ie water and nourishment). The problem is the constitution has been buryed by asshole deep burecratic regulations (ie UCMJ, etc). The constitution is not a complicated document but has been made complicated through presidences which is fine, thats how law works. The problem is the treatment at basic and PTRP boils down to prison like conditions, and if you have not been tried for a crime you should not be subjected to prison like conditions. Its being confined without legal representation (ie a JAG assigned to me as counsel as to why I am being held.

How is it confinement? You are restricted from going places in the civilian world. Hence, Authorized Personnel Only, or Employees Only. You are not confined, merely restricted from certain things you can and cannot do. Which is how the real world works. Without structure and rules, the world turns to anarchy. Prison-like conditions? When were you in prison? I've been there for tours, but never a resident. The barracks are nothing like prison. Liberty and pursuit of happiness? You might not believe it, but those "rights" were foregone when you chose to serve this organization, and its rules. If an Engineering Firm hired you, and said you cannot smoke pot while employed here, would you do it, because its a demonstration of libertas? Not withstanding it is illegal, and you would be fired? There is no complicating precedence. You agreed to obey the orders and regulations, you SWORE in an oath, to do so. You even SIGNED a contract that said you would do so. You VOLUNTARILY agreed to be under the charge, orders, regulations, directives, and codes of conduct in the military. Just because you become injured, your contract and oath are hereby terminated? Bullshit. You'd scream bloody murder for worker's compensation in the civilian market, to pay for your medical care. You don't get it here, because medical care is provided free of charge.
Fortunately, the military is older than this country, and has changed very little in the grand scheme of things, and will outlive all of us. So, Federal Laws will change little that affect the military and its practices.

Sure, quote Abu Ghirab, just remember, I feel no sympathy for the Iraqis "abused." Up until they were "humiliated," those SOBs were trying to kill my countrymen and I. I feel no sympathy for the NCOs, Soldiers, and Officers punished for it either. They got what was coming. Soldiers bitching is like the wind, its always there, you just don't see it. If they were "abused" and "mistreated", those responsible will get theirs. I listen to the sob stories of people who were "abused" in the military, mistreated, whatever, day in and day out. There is always more to the story. So, when the investigation by the IG is complete, GAO or someone else reviews it; then we will know the story of what happened.

Fact: The barraks are locked down and if you leave its AWOL, that is detainment (regardless if its exactly like prison its still detainment), which is totally different from smoking pot and being fired from a civilian job. Not being able to go somewhere as in a restricted location in the civilian world is leaps and bounds different than not being able to go anywhere at all, which is detainment. The constitution does not gaurentee you a living wage it gaurentees you your freedom. And after having experenced the military I would rather be homeless than a subject of the military.

The civilian world has lived without UCMJ and has not turned to anarchy, and even though the military has been around a while, UCMJ was only created about 50 years ago roughly.

If I am experencing what I believe to be abuse and I want to blow the whistle I want to go through the process from home not the same place as the abusers are where they can micromange my time while im injured, and once the litigation is done im not going to go back and try again to see if I get abused again thats nonsense. When you sign up for the military you are signing up to defend the contry not to be abused or hazed (civilian definition of hazing not the military definition, which would make a good percentage of basic hazing)

When you signed up to defend the country, the military had an obligation to ensure you were fully capable to carry out that mission. When you failed to make it through the equivilent of military kindergarden, you initiated a series of events designed to help you to be able to pass the absolute minimum standards. You flat out quit.

One of the fundementals of being a contributing military defender of the nation, is the ability to follow orders. You failed even that. Now you lash out at every opportunity due entirely to your own failures. The military didn't fail you, you failed the military. You failed your country.

Im just trying to be as factual as possible. Also remember that I did not fail anything, I refused to tolerate abuse. I finished basic and when the BS dident end I said enough is enough. There are leaps and bounds differences between quiting something because its too hard or quiting because you are disrespected, hazed and abused, thats like saying that a woman who leaves her husband because he beats her is a failure and a quiter, do you realize how rediculas that makes you sound when you put it into the proper perspective.

It is certiantly ok for you to tolerate BS and abuse if thats your thing, but it does not make someone any less of a person because they refuse to tolerate that type of behavior.

I still think the article is a good read for someone thinking about joining. And then reading about how a combat arms recruiter says that type of treatment from drill sgts is ok by UCMJ (save the negligant perscription by the doctor), the fact that it is a death story is irrelavant, the key is the hostile atmosphere and treatment towards thoes that are injured.

Its ok by UCMJ for them to treat you a half a step above an inmate, just keep that in mind before you join. It is totally ok for you not to get cigeretts, soda or cell phones or see your girl friend well beyond the 9 weeks, to have an extension on your negitive quality of life. Every time you have to hobble out to some meaningless formation you risk reinjury but thats ok too (unless you are totally cripled in a bed). Of course they will justify it buy changing tones and sensationalizing "training" "disipline" but your injured your not training anymore so keeping the same rules for a non training individual is pure abuse.

I dont care about Abu Ghirab, there terror suspects not your own people, I have a real problem abusing your own men and women, I dont care how you justify it.

But and I will say it again more power to you because it has gone uncorrected for a long time. Just because the masses agree with an idea does not make that idea or system right. You know that and I know that, but you have to play combat arms recruiter because your paycheck and quality of life as a recruiter depend on numbers you get in (you personally, not the army as a whole).

still looks like the military system worked as advertized where you are concerned. You were weeded out before you got someone killed. You couldn't hack it stateside, its a sure thing you couldn't of hacked it when the bullets started coming at you.

quote:

Originally posted by rrpearso:

...You know that and I know that, but you have to play combat arms recruiter because your paycheck and quality of life as a recruiter depend on numbers you get in.

My paycheck doesn't change one penny if I put in 100 people or none. My quality of life doesn't change one bit if I put no one, or everyone in. I also don't view the same crap you do as abuse or maltreatment. You, for some reason, think because I am a combat arms MOS, I didn't have to endure some stupid human tricks.
You think that an ankle injury (twisted, sprained, broken) is so debilitating, that a formation would re-injure it or exacerbate it?? Good Lord, man! They make air casts, walking casts, and crutches; so you can maintain your mobility! You are categorizing this "abuse" like we are in a hospital with terminally ill personnel or people with broken necks and spines!! These are injuries to limbs! So, because you broke your ankle, you are excused from work, school, RESPONSIBILITY!?!? Use your head, and face the facts. You have to grow up Peter Pan. The world ain't easy, and sometimes you have to dig down deep and continue on despite an injury. Millions of people do it everyday. Even me, with my robo-knee braces on both knees during PT.

Combat arms have to go through more crap than most MOS's and the between the lines impression that I got from combat arms types was: I went through it (the extra BS) so damn it so are you. You are totally missing my point or choising to avoid it, there is a big difference between going to work at my desk with some sort of injury and standing in formation and having the drill make you rush to put on different variations of your uniform when you have on a brace and are on crutches in a short amount of time, you seem to have a hard time distinguishing between day to day basic responsibilitys and the stupid BS that is done in basic. And thats another issue, you dont have to be terminally ill to reinjure a limb by being forced to do stupid shit by the drills, and I dont want to be walking with a cane when I get out because I unnessicarily put strain on my injury that was not nessicary

And if you are removed from training that means that the 9 week clock is no longer clicking for you so you should not be subject to any basic training regulations you should be subject to everyday military member rules, if I want a soda and a BJ from a girl friend fine your removed from training. The fact that the subhuman basic training regulations apply when you are removed from training is unethical.

It's just all so....UGLY.

Recruit treatment is...recruit treatment. A buddy of mine put in his two weeks notice a few days before we were to get bonuses and raises. He wonders why he didn't get either. They're not going to treat you nice because you quit. AND, it's a very high stress environment. Many are on the verge of quitting, just hanging in there. If they see that it's all puppies and rainbows once they quit, they may just choose to. And, unlike yourself, they may regret the decision. I know a few that have.

There is a difference between a high strees job and initiation hazing or "recruit treatment". I assume the job you have is by nature stressful (ie air traffic controling) in which case is fine, however if the stress is artificially created by your melodramatic boss (ie your a computer programmer but you boss stands over you and screams) that would be BS, and depending on what is going on he could sue your boss.