I happen to have qualified Rifle Expert with the M-16, 7 consecutive times, with a high score of 247 out of 250. Rifle qual lasts one entire week, and during that time I did not clean the weapon during that week. Never had a jam or any issue with the functionality of the weapon. Other Marines in here can back that up with thier own experiences.

The early release of the weapon was ill-concieved and yes, some lives were lost as a result. Rush a new weapons system out in the field, especially into a jungle environment as in this case, that was destined to happen. You folks do need to give COLT credit where it is due though. The M-16 rapidly became the WORLD standard weapon of choice. It is light, easy to maintain, highly accurate, and has high rate of sustained fire. It just needed to mature and it has.

One thing most of the neophytes in here haven't connected all the dots on concerning selecting a weapon for an Army, is the sheer numbers of weapons it takes to outfit one.

Using the US as an example, one must consider the manufacturing capacity of the vender.

Choosing a vendor for another nation isn't such a smart idea for obvious reaons.

Do you really belive that the United States would rely on say France or Germany to supply our military with automatic weapons as a sole source moving forward?

Do you really think our nation's people would allow that? You guy's really do need to increase your medication if your really think that.

The decision to go to the 5.56 caliber was to place a stake in the ground so that our NATO allies could do the same. It all comes down to making strategic decisions for the nation. Belive it or not, it was the right thing to do given all the circumstances.

Have you ever tried to qualify with an AK before, using the same standards we use for the M-16? I have and it wasn't pretty. The best I could do was a 211 out of 250. And that was the best out of four different trips to the range.

Yep the AK is refuse as well and the maturing of colt is the 1020/M5 but the military wont switch, its not forign made or anything. I knew tons of people in basic who had all kinds of weapons malfunctions with there M-16 some people were recycled as a result (what a nightmare that would be).

Sounds like a lot of people think that if you go into the Military you special order your weapon they have been very few changes made except the actions of the M-16 when the Goverment put thousands of M-16's in services back in the 60's all they are doing is mod.the old weapons and adding attachments that will fit the old frame.

I know i'm going to get a beating from other people and probably be told to shut the f up because of this, but i think the AK47 is overrated, even though i admit how common it is, the unquestioned reliability and a good strong round, But what use is there to a rifle with such a high caliber round if it takes most of your clip to take him down, or at least a third or fourth of your clip?

like most weaponry, the AK47 is popular because its cheap..wildly massed produced, illegally copied and knocked off, it is the ' favoured' weapon of choice for the fahsionalbe insurgent...

relatively portable, repairable and ammo is readily available.. hence so many of them about..other benefit is that it doesn't take a whole lot of training to stick it in the hands of a kid [ Africa child militias ] or illiterate and uneducated extremists and show them how to spray a room or a crowded market and get the effect required...

low tech, mass produced.. perfect for the job at hand..

sophisitcated weapons which see in the dark, shoot round corners, and require technical support are only good for ' organized ' militaries with the infrastructure to back up that specialization...

Is it me, or is there an uncanny resembelance between the Mp44 sturmgewehr and the Ak47 kalishnikov?

and dont forget theres so many because pretty much everyone that hated us had piles and piles and piles of Ak47s dumped on them from the commies

The Kalisnikov was indeed patterned after the MP44, however the mechanicals for the 47 are way different than the 44. The 44 was a WWII German design. Have you ever taken apart a german pistol from WWII, or rifle from that era? The machine work is phenominal, and I have yet to see Russia, Japan, China weapon with that much high quality machining and tolerences into thier weapons. No other country from that era did, not even the US.

1. Gunny, you are assuming I said the US military, which I did not say anywhere, therefore the whole foreign vendors thing has nothing to do with this discussion as I was not talking about the US army.
2. The AK's look like the STG44 because they were very much copying the design
3. Gunny at the same time it was that precision machining that made production hard and expensive, and made many designs unreliable because of susceptibility to grime.

I provided the example of the US Army as a conversation point. Needed to base it on something right? You certainly didn't give me much to work with there.

The AK is not a copy of the M44, it is very different mechanically. Looks like it outside but its inside that counts.

I was simply expressing my admiration for the fine German machine work that they put into those weapons. The ones I own are still fully functional and show very little wear even after all these years. I have 2 Thompson Model 1921AC's complete with drum mags. My uncle gave them to me in his will. These were still wrapped in cosmloine. I had one apart so I could clen all that preservative off and so I could fire that damned thing, and compared the machining to one of my Lugars. There ain't no comparison. The German work was far superiour. That's all I'm saying.

Hard to produce and expensive? hey, the Germans didn't care how much it cost nor how hard they were to make, they obtianed the resources to produce everything they needed for thier war effort. We just put a halt to it all.

You appear to be of the opinion that to be a good weapon, it must be able to function 100% of the time regardless of the condition, environment or expect it to operate without any maintenance at all and never let you down. That is a very unrealistic expectation to hold. It like you have never heard of corrosion or the corrosive effect that discharging ammunition has on steel and such. The only guns I know of that meet that criteria are friggin squirt guns....

This ain't a slam, just a chat ok?

1. I'm not trying to "slam" on anyone, I'm sorry if you got that idea, and I mean no agression towards anyone here.
2. That is not what I expect at all, I don't really know where you got that idea, but I must say it's an incorrect assumption. Notice why I said I was appalled about the absense of cleaning kits with the M16, certainly not something I would be talking about if I wanted a gun that I'd never have to take care of. I know very well the corrosive effects of cartridges on the barrlels. I'm wondering where you got the idea that I expected this from a weapon

just wondering, but hyperion are you some kinda teacher or historian or something?

No I am neither a history or a historian, nor do I claim in any way to be anything more than a person who knows about history from a great love of the subject.

either XM-8's, HK G11', or HK G-36's; IMO these are the best of the best.

Well, for an army with masses and masses of men, like china, i'd pick a very common rifle like the Ak47. For something like the marine corp, where marksmanship is coveted (the one shot one kill policy), the M16 or G36. The list goes on. It all depends on your home enviroment of your nation, your armies situation and numbers, traditions so on. You cant really just pick your favorite rifle and say "If i had an army, i would pick thier rifle no matter what", cause then you might have another equipment screw up. Think. What if the NVA and VC had guns like M16s where range and accuracy for meduim to long ranges are what made it good, instead of an AK47 which is suited to the jungle enviroments due to close combat conditions of jungles.

Why the AK-47? (as opposed to an AK chambered in something else), it's round doesn't fragment or yaw giving it kinda mediocre ballistics.

didnt you notice the part about numerous men? The ak47 is so common and easily mass produced as i hear, and so easy to maintain(Meaning less cleaning kits needed or kits not even required) would be perfect for masses and masses of men. After all, wasnt it the AK47 we imagined being carried by the millions and millions of men of the red horde across the european plains? isnt it the most common rifle in the world?

Without hesitation, an M-14 with polymer stock (unless I'm in a country where wood would be way cheaper)

I'd chamber it in .243. Low recoil, flat shooting, long range, and the second best balanced killing cartridge I've ever fired (#1 is a tie: 6.5x55 Swede and .260 Remington).