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Location: Visayas
Registered: 17 March 2006
Posts: 16
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So, you thought the European constitution was dead, did you?
By Daniel Hannan
(Filed: 20/03/2006)

Two years from now, the European constitution will be in force - certainly de facto and probably de jure, too. Never mind that 15 million Frenchmen and five million swag-bellied Hollanders voted against it.



The Eurocrats have worked out a deft way of getting around them. Here's how they'll do it.

First, they will shove through as many of the constitution's contents as they can under the existing legal framework - a process they had already begun even before the referendums.

Around 85 per cent of the text can, with some creative interpretation, be implemented this way.

True, there are one or two clauses that will require a formal treaty amendment: a European president to replace the system whereby the member nations take it in turns to chair EU meetings; a new voting system; legal personality for the Union.

These outstanding items will be formalised at a miniature inter-governmental conference, probably in 2007. There will be no need to debate them again: all 25 governments accepted them in principle when they signed the constitution 17 months ago.

We shall then be told that these are detailed and technical changes, far too abstruse to be worth pestering the voters with.

The EU will thus have equipped itself with 100 per cent of the constitution, but without having held any more referendums. Clever, no?

Don't take my word for it: listen to what the EU's own leaders are saying. Here is Wolfgang Schüssel, Chancellor of Austria and the EU's current president: "The constitution is not dead."

Here is Angela Merkel, leader of Europe's most powerful and populous state: "Europe needs the constitution… We are willing to make whatever contribution is necessary to bring the constitution into force."

Here is Dominique de Villepin, who, in true European style, has risen to the prime ministership of France without ever having run for elected office: "France did not say no to Europe."

And, on Tuesday, our own Europe minister, Douglas Alexander, repeatedly refused to rule out pushing ahead with the bulk of the text without a referendum.

For the purest statement of the Eurocrats' contempt for the voters, however, we must turn to the constitution's author, Valéry Giscard d'Estaing.

Here is a man who, with his exquisite suits and de haut en bas manner, might be said to personify the EU: so extraordinarily distinguished, as Mallarmé remarked in a different context, that when you bid him bonjour, he makes you feel as though you'd said merde.

"Let's be clear about this," pronounced Giscard a couple of weeks ago. "The rejection of the constitution was a mistake that will have to be corrected."

He went on to remind his audience that the Danish and Irish electorates had once been presumptuous enough to vote against a European treaty, but that no one had paid them the slightest attention.

The same thing is happening today. Since the French and Dutch "No" votes, three countries have approved the text and three more - Finland, Estonia and Belgium - look set to follow in the coming weeks, which would bring to 16 the number of states to have ratified.

At the same time, the European Commission has launched a massive exercise to sell the constitution to the doltish national electorates.

Their scheme goes under the splendidly James Bondish title of "Plan D". I forget what the D stands for: deceit, I think, or possibly disdain.

Anyway, squillions of euros are being spent on explaining to us that we have misunderstood our true interests.

While all this is going on, the EU is proceeding as if the constitution were already in force. Most of the institutions and policies that it would have authorised are being enacted anyway: the External Borders Agency, the European Public Prosecutor, the External Action Service, the Charter of Fundamental Rights, the European Defence Agency, the European Space Programme.

The text is not, as the cliché of the moment has it, being "smuggled in through the back door"; it is swaggering brazenly through the front.

Whenever one of these initiatives comes before us on the constitutional affairs committee, I ask my federalist colleagues: "Where in the existing treaties does it say you can do this?"

"Where does it say we can't?" they reply. Pressed for a proper answer, they point to a flimsy cat's-cradle of summit communiqués, council resolutions and commission press releases.

To be fair, this is how the European project has always advanced. First, Brussels extends its jurisdiction into a new field of policy and then, often years later, it gets around to regularising that extension in a new treaty.

The voters are thus presented with a fait accompli, the theory being that they will be likelier to shrug their shoulders and accept it than they would have been to give their consent in advance.

This, indeed, is how the EU was designed. Its founding fathers understood from the first that their audacious plan to merge the ancient nations of Europe into a single polity would never succeed if each successive transfer of power had to be referred back to the voters for approval.

So they cunningly devised a structure where supreme power was in the hands of appointed functionaries, immune to public opinion.

Indeed, the EU's structure is not so much undemocratic as anti-democratic in that many commissioners, à la Patten and Kinnock, have been explicitly rejected by the voters.

In swatting aside two referendum results, the EU is being true to its foundational principles.

Born out of a reaction against the Second World War, and the plebiscitary democracy that had preceded it, the EU is based on the notion that "populism" (or "democracy", as you and I call it) is a dangerous thing.

Faced with a result that they dislike, the Euro-apparatchiks' first instinct is to ask, with Brecht: "Wouldn't it be easier to dissolve the people and elect another in their place?"

To complain that the EU is undemocratic is like attacking a cow for being bovine, or a butterfly for being flighty. In disregarding public opinion, the EU is doing what it has been programmed to do. It is fulfilling its prime directive.

Sadly, we British are also exhibiting one of our worst national characteristics, namely our tendency to ignore what is happening on the Continent until too late.

With a few exceptions - and here I doff my cap to the pressure group Open Europe, which is waging a lonely campaign to alert people to the danger - we are carrying on as though the French electorate had killed off the constitution, and so spared us from having to think about the European issue at all.

Once again, we are fantasising about the kind of EU we might ideally like to have, rather than dealing with the one that is in fact taking shape on our doorstep. Will we never learn?


Frowner
"Charletan and Montebank"
Registered: 16 February 2005
Posts: 1275
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thanks for bringing Daniel Hannan's take on things to our attention.. now what's yours?

Pro? con?
Seriously concerned on how this will affect North America/USA?
Couldn't care less just wanted to waste bandwidth...?


Float like a Lepidoptera, Sting like a Hymenoptera
Location: Visayas
Registered: 17 March 2006
Posts: 16
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The E.U. ministers must let the people decide. All E.U. citizens should be allowed access to free information & Frownerto vote any legislation that will affect their nation. The way things are going right now, the eurocrats are short changing the people by raming legislation without the people's consent. This is totally unfair & dangerous. The actions of these eurocrats are sad to say tantamount to dictatorship.
"Charletan and Montebank"
Registered: 16 February 2005
Posts: 1275
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You are watching the " United States of Europe " being born..I'm fairly certain that the individual nations will ' define' the way they interact as they see fit rather than have a ' federal' body establsih what they can and can't do...

That being said, what does it matter to you? As far as I can tell its a whole bunch of fee and democratic nations deciding democratically to reframe their future as they see fit...

You suggesting that they're being ' hoodwinked ' and ..what ... America has to go in and rescue them from themselves? You think invading Iraq was tough? just try a new D-day scenario...


Float like a Lepidoptera, Sting like a Hymenoptera
Picture of Weatherman1956
Location: On the Beach.
Registered: 08 March 2005
Posts: 831
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Sort of like Who's on First? by Abbott and Costello...Military industrial complex or political dictatorship ...theocracy... democratic coalition...ologarcy... aristocrocy... mob rule...I say Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know's on third...
That's what I want to find out.



(wasting cyberspace with a not so obscure cultural reference)

quote:

Abbott: Well Costello, I'm going to New York with you. You know Bucky Harris, the Yankee's manager, gave me a job as coach for as long as you're on the team.

Costello: Look Abbott, if you're the coach, you must know all the players.

Abbott: I certainly do.

Costello: Well you know I've never met the guys. So you'll have to tell me their names, and then I'll know who's playing on the team.

Abbott: Oh, I'll tell you their names, but you know it seems to me they give these ball players now-a-days very peculiar names.

Costello: You mean funny names?

Abbott: Strange names, pet names...like Dizzy Dean...

Costello: His brother Daffy.

Abbott: Daffy Dean...

Costello: And their French cousin.

Abbott: French?

Costello: Goofè.

Abbott: Goofè Dean. Well, let's see, we have on the bags, Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third...

Costello: That's what I want to find out.

Abbott: I say Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know's on third.

Costello: Are you the manager?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: You gonna be the coach too?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: And you don't know the fellows' names?

Abbott: Well I should.

Costello: Well then who's on first?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: I mean the fellow's name.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy on first.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The first baseman.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy playing...

Abbott: Who is on first!

Costello: I'm asking YOU who's on first.

Abbott: That's the man's name.

Costello: That's who's name?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: Well go ahead and tell me.

Abbott: That's it.

Costello: That's who?

Abbott: Yes.

PAUSE

Costello: Look, you gotta first baseman?

Abbott: Certainly.

Costello: Who's playing first?

Abbott: That's right.

Costello: When you pay off the first baseman every month, who gets the money?

Abbott: Every dollar of it.

Costello: All I'm trying to find out is the fellow's name on first base.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy that gets...

Abbott: That's it.

Costello: Who gets the money...

Abbott: He does, every dollar. Sometimes his wife comes down and collects it.

Costello: Whose wife?

Abbott: Yes.

PAUSE

Abbott: What's wrong with that?

Costello: Look, all I wanna know is when you sign up the first baseman, how does he sign his name?

Abbott: Who.

Costello: The guy.

Abbott: Who.

Costello: How does he sign...

Abbott: That's how he signs it.

Costello: Who?

Abbott: Yes.

PAUSE

Costello: All I'm trying to find out is what's the guy's name on first base.

Abbott: No. What is on second base.

Costello: I'm not asking you who's on second.

Abbott: Who's on first.

Costello: One base at a time!

Abbott: Well, don't change the players around.

Costello: I'm not changing nobody!

Abbott: Take it easy, buddy.

Costello: I'm only asking you, who's the guy on first base?

Abbott: That's right.

Costello: Ok.

Abbott: All right.

PAUSE

Costello: What's the guy's name on first base?

Abbott: No. What is on second.

Costello: I'm not asking you who's on second.

Abbott: Who's on first.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott: He's on third, we're not talking about him.

Costello: Now how did I get on third base?

Abbott: Why you mentioned his name.

Costello: If I mentioned the third baseman's name, who did I say is playing third?

Abbott: No. Who's playing first.

Costello: What's on first?

Abbott: What's on second.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott: He's on third.

Costello: There I go, back on third again!

PAUSE

Costello: Would you just stay on third base and don't go off it.

Abbott: All right, what do you want to know?

Costello: Now who's playing third base?

Abbott: Why do you insist on putting Who on third base?

Costello: What am I putting on third.

Abbott: No. What is on second.

Costello: You don't want who on second?

Abbott: Who is on first.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott & Costello Together:Third base!

PAUSE

Costello: Look, you gotta outfield?

Abbott: Sure.

Costello: The left fielder's name?

Abbott: Why.

Costello: I just thought I'd ask you.

Abbott: Well, I just thought I'd tell ya.

Costello: Then tell me who's playing left field.

Abbott: Who's playing first.

Costello: I'm not... stay out of the infield! I want to know what's the guy's name in left field?

Abbott: No, What is on second.

Costello: I'm not asking you who's on second.

Abbott: Who's on first!

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott & Costello Together: Third base!

PAUSE

Costello: The left fielder's name?

Abbott: Why.

Costello: Because!

Abbott: Oh, he's centerfield.

PAUSE

Costello: Look, You gotta pitcher on this team?

Abbott: Sure.

Costello: The pitcher's name?

Abbott: Tomorrow.

Costello: You don't want to tell me today?

Abbott: I'm telling you now.

Costello: Then go ahead.

Abbott: Tomorrow!

Costello: What time?

Abbott: What time what?

Costello: What time tomorrow are you gonna tell me who's pitching?

Abbott: Now listen. Who is not pitching.

Costello: I'll break your arm, you say who's on first! I want to know what's the pitcher's name?

Abbott: What's on second.

Costello: I don't know.

Abbott & Costello Together: Third base!

PAUSE

Costello: Gotta a catcher?

Abbott: Certainly.

Costello: The catcher's name?

Abbott: Today.

Costello: Today, and tomorrow's pitching.

Abbott: Now you've got it.

Costello: All we got is a couple of days on the team.

PAUSE

Costello: You know I'm a catcher too.

Abbott: So they tell me.

Costello: I get behind the plate to do some fancy catching, Tomorrow's pitching on my team and a heavy hitter gets up. Now the heavy hitter bunts the ball. When he bunts the ball, me, being a good catcher, I'm gonna throw the guy out at first base. So I pick up the ball and throw it to who?

Abbott: Now that's the first thing you've said right.

Costello: I don't even know what I'm talking about!

PAUSE

Abbott: That's all you have to do.

Costello: Is to throw the ball to first base.

Abbott: Yes!

Costello: Now who's got it?

Abbott: Naturally.

PAUSE

Costello: Look, if I throw the ball to first base, somebody's gotta get it. Now who has it?

Abbott: Naturally.

Costello: Who?

Abbott: Naturally.

Costello: Naturally?

Abbott: Naturally.

Costello: So I pick up the ball and I throw it to Naturally.

Abbott: No you don't, you throw the ball to Who.

Costello: Naturally.

Abbott: That's different.

Costello: That's what I said.

Abbott: You're not saying it...

Costello: I throw the ball to Naturally.

Abbott: You throw it to Who.

Costello: Naturally.

Abbott: That's it.

Costello: That's what I said!

Abbott: You ask me.

Costello: I throw the ball to who?

Abbott: Naturally.

Costello: Now you ask me.

Abbott: You throw the ball to Who?

Costello: Naturally.

Abbott: That's it.

Costello: Same as you! Same as YOU! I throw the ball to who. Whoever it is drops the ball and the guy runs to second. Who picks up the ball and throws it to What. What throws it to I Don't Know. I Don't Know throws it back to Tomorrow, Triple play. Another guy gets up and hits a long fly ball to Because. Why? I don't know! He's on third and I don't give a darn!

Abbott: What?

Costello: I said I don't give a darn!

Abbott: Oh, that's our shortstop.




Razzer

Guess where they built the tower of babel?
Babylon? U.N.? E.U.? N.Y.C.? Google?

c'est la vie? Que Sara Sara? livin la vita loca?

potato...bok choy

lemon, lime, elixir...7-up...sprite

don't give me das Flakfeuer

give me Liberty or give me Ad nauseam

don't mix metaphors...machts nichts

one small steppe for Persona non grata

rambel'in rant's over rover



Big Grin
Registered: 19 February 2006
Posts: 1234
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I think the individual european nations are affraid to see there nations swallowed up by a federal government in the way the united states has been. According to our own constitution the federal government has very basic rights and responsibilities (eg. print money, deal with international issues, etc) but now days the federal government has one foot into your living room, each state has its own rights to govern its self as it sees fit (at least in theory) of course if an individual state does not play ball with the (now massive) federal government they cut off money from needed projects which is corruption in the congress at the federal level(ie drinking ages, firearm issues and yes even everybodys favorite, activation of state national guard units which were originally created for defense of the state, I never heard of a national guard unit in the revolutionary war that was sent to take the war to britian). Can representitives be elected in and out sure, its the life long beurocrates that operate in the back ground working for special interests, whether that interest be the president and his coherts or private industry that are the problem.
"Charletan and Montebank"
Registered: 16 February 2005
Posts: 1275
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For some reason I keep thinking of a line from Toy Story:

" You small,sad little man..."


Float like a Lepidoptera, Sting like a Hymenoptera
Registered: 19 February 2006
Posts: 1234
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So your saying none of what im saying is true? Thats the problem with people, there walking in a cloud of smoke they can not see out of. The US is still a great place to live, the roman empire still stood after 100's of years of corruption, then they corrected themselves a little and then crumbled, im not going to have to worry about it in my life time, so its something fun to debate, if it were serious we would be having a civil war.
Picture of xxafspxx
Location: wouldn't you want to know!!
Registered: 21 June 2005
Posts: 144
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In the National Guard it is our state first unless the President needs us and activates us. So there for it is not congress or the senate that activates us Federally. Just think about how much time you would save if you just took some time to pull your head out of your ass and looked things up. Honestly you are a bit of a hinder to me now. If you would like to try to be knowledgeable please take time from now on to look stuff up before you post! Please step on a landmine for the sake of stupid posts!


If you'd been where I'd been... if you'd seen the things I'd seen!...... you'd be me... Or someone following me around...
Registered: 19 February 2006
Posts: 1234
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The governor has to ok the federalization of the guard units which means if a guard unit is activated the governor sold out thoes units.
Picture of CavScout19D30
Location: Germany
Registered: 14 February 2006
Posts: 301
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Since when does a governor "approve" a Presidential order? I'm just wondering if I don't understand the hierarchy of U.S. Government. Anyone?


"Brave Rifles! Veterans! You have been baptized in Fire and Blood, and come out Steel!"
Registered: 19 February 2006
Posts: 1234
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The US is not a hierarchy, is a checks and balences. The government is not a fifedome.
"Curmudgeon"
Picture of HarryP
Location: Washtenaw County, Michigan
Registered: 21 January 2005
Posts: 1741
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You need to find mister dictionary and start looking up the words above two syllables.


"It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it"
DOUGLAS MacARTHUR, 1952
Picture of CavScout19D30
Location: Germany
Registered: 14 February 2006
Posts: 301
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Is a "fifedome" a place where Fife and Drum corps go for a competition? Like the Superbowl?
You know, the SuperDome, the AlamoDome, the SilverDome, like that.

Anyway, isn't the current state of affairs in the EU a direct result of collapsing regimes? Followed by an attempt to patch it all and put Humpty Dumpty together again? I think it could be related to political inexperience. The EU has many "new" Nations governing themselves, trying to figure out the best approach to legislature, and make it the best for the population; whereas Nations that are further developed and versed in the political arena want the constitution to directly benefit their position.


"Brave Rifles! Veterans! You have been baptized in Fire and Blood, and come out Steel!"
"Curmudgeon"
Picture of HarryP
Location: Washtenaw County, Michigan
Registered: 21 January 2005
Posts: 1741
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CavScout: They spent so many years at war with each other that they may never have any trust. I still trust people in Missippi as much as I do people in New York or Indiana (well maybe not Indiana).


"It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it"
DOUGLAS MacARTHUR, 1952
Picture of mech768
Registered: 12 August 2005
Posts: 179
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I thought the EU was only going to work a unified monitary, business system with open borders. I didn't think they were going to change their Political systems. Imagine a German president being elected for the EU?


Where's the coffee?
"Charletan and Montebank"
Registered: 16 February 2005
Posts: 1275
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Harry/Mach:
it may have started out as an economic union/trade issue but it has grown much bigger than that [ trust policiticans to muck up the simplest of things ] and now includes the concept of a ' continental army ', combined foreign policy stance, a new tier above/beyond or in replacement of NATO unified immigration policies, etc..

only thing stopping this from becoming just one big country with each nation reduiced to ' state' status is the problem of differing levels of economies etc..In the US all states have [ nominally ] the same standard of living whereas Portugal is so far behind France/Germany in standards and Italy changes governments at the drop of a meatball.. until they level out their playing field things will not be settled -- but, they're working on it even if they have to drag some members kicking and screaming [not to mention holding the hands of those eastern European entities that they're allowing to come in and play so soon after cutting strings from ol' Ruissia/Soviet Union..]

interesting times...


Float like a Lepidoptera, Sting like a Hymenoptera
Picture of mech768
Registered: 12 August 2005
Posts: 179
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I'll have to read more up on it. That would definately change a balance of power over there wouldn't it?


Where's the coffee?
Picture of Fox Mulder
Registered: 23 April 2007
Posts: 182
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This writer has no idea that the EU is a form of liberalism in politics. He should go back to school.

Here are the reasons...
A. free markets - economics
B. republics (representative democracy) - each nation-state
C. institution - the EU itself

That leads to long term peace in the region.


Fair Winds and Following Seas
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