I would like to know what people on this board think about Democracy.

Are the American people allowed to vote whether we have wars and when troops can go home?

Are the people of America responsible to the world?

Is it a reality, that the will of the people, should be above the will of the military?

Is the military designed to defend democracy? Why is it not controlled or deployed by democracy?

Will it take an act of Congress to get the troops home?

Is it proper to assume that democracy is what we love, as Americans, and is that what we strive to protect?

Is it valid for us to force democracy down anyones throat? Is it valid for us to remove murders from a regime?

Do people need to have rights and civil liberties? Do we show the world a good example by what we do here at home?

Just some questions, I personally am neutral politically, but I love democracy forever.

Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.


WINSTON CHRUCHILL. 1947

We do not directly vote on wars in this country that is why we have a government for whose memebers we do vote. Slowing the process down allows for a better functioning form of governing.

Democracy is only as good as the people behind it. It is not necessarily a good thing. Democracy may not be applicable to all nations. For example recently the Palestenians had a democratic elections, result they voted Hamas, a terrorist organization to power.

Like here in Pakistan, there were elections in 2002.It is only a show off as the Chief of Army staff is the President and it is a form of military dictatorship as only the things the President like happens..I'm very sorry to say things like this about my country but it is the reality.

Democracy Very strong word, to bad our present leaders don't have a true concept of the meaning, thus our own nations changes. When I hear our leaders say countries like Afgan and many other countries are Democracy's now, I laugh with a sorrow grin, Sure they had elections, and they have basic rights, ummm like death if you change religion from a muslim to whatever. The fact is Democracy is not just about elections, its about freedoms and rights, and depending on our goverments views or needs, that word Democracy is so easly accepted without real meaning. Do we need and Act of congress to defin what a Democracy is? We might need one if things keep changing here (U.S.) Who knows we might get another leader that says, geez North Korea had free elections so what if only one man ran, now its a Democracy.

Its not just elections its the balance of power. The constitution lays out the balance of power. Its not just about electing predients its about electing representitves (sure you can vote for the president but depending on how many electorial votes your state has and what time zone you are in, your vote probably will not count). Technically the US is a republic.

The only problem with this country is you have to be convicted of a crime before you can contest the laws constitutionality. I shouldent have to risk jail time to call out something bogus like the UCMJ. You want to talk about striping rights look at the UCMJ sometime.

rppearso....Only you could turn a conversation about democracy into something about the UCMJ.
Here's a thought for you, start your own thread on the subject and stick with it instead of diverting every other thread on this board.

After all, thats how forums actually frigging work.

First a lesson in semantics and ethnography [ words - an alien concept to many of you given your lack of familiarity with spelling and spell check ]..
DEMO- CRACY: The will [- government ]of the people..
This means that everyone [ however defined ] has a say in how things work - never mind block voting, parties, other undue influences for sake of argument - each person has the right to propose and vote on what s/he feels is best for the community..
trouble starts when the will of the people is subverted by a difference of opinion.. Majority Rules.. you will always have a disaffected minority who will chafe under the fact that they lost on a particular issue/concept, etc..

The basic flaw in the system.

Do those who lose on a particular vote accept the ' will' of the majortiy and just live with the consequences [ hoping that things will fall apart to prove them right while still avoiding a potential catastrope ?] Does the minority keep trying to sway the majority ad nauseum driving everyone nuts with their incessant whining? or do they just pack up, split off and go their own way until another minority gets miffed and they split, too, until the world is just a slew of little bitty countries all pissed at the other guys and doing their own things because they think their way is better Oh, wait.. we've got that already.. funny..

Don't get democracy and rule of law mixed up.. freedoms and liberties can and have been circumvented, restricted, subverted [ pick your own adjective ] in the interest of protecting the people.. Thus phones are tapped, travel restricted, privacy invaded all under the guise of preventing disaffected elements from disrupting the ' will of the majority '..

there is no pure form of democracy where everyone has the same right - there wil always be those who exert undue influence on policy, direction, etc.. Miguel flipping tacos at his roadside stand will never have the same clout as Brad, CEO of MegaGlobalresourcesMulticorp..
live with it..

While we in the west shake our heads at the thought of a Theocracy where everyone has to follow a strict and limited set of rules down to what you can eat, wear and think..take another look at the ' guidlines' now in place in the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave..no one has true freedom and liberty [ you still can't walk down the street naked in most towns ].

We volunarily restrict ourselves in multiple ways each day in order to get along with each other [ otherwise why bother with stop signs?

So, bottom line, in the interests of protecting democracy and the American way of life, even the Army put up with rrpearso long after it had to/should have just to save America from falling into anarchy and the clutches of Al Quaeda...

okay.. so can we get this debate/discussion underway now and no Bush bashing - that's so last year.. and, anyway, he's nopt coming back aftervthis term is he..and Dick Cheney is out ' cause he's got a bum ticker.. so anyone new will have to be Condoleeza or Hillary, right? [ unless you're all opting for the return of the zombies Kerry and Gore - ]

oh, and one more thought.. any bets on any new Administration lifting any of the ' restrictions ' and returning the country to the freedoms envisioned by the founding fathers?

I think Al Gore would be a good candidate.

The bill of rights was created so that the majority could not easily strip away the basic rights of anyone. Putting in parks, roads, "stop signs" and such is the job of the government but wire taping is trading freedom for security in which case if you are willing to do that you deserve neither.

I trust major corporations that commmand more power than the government because 99% of the time there motive is to make money, where as with the governement who knows what alterior motive they might have taking away gun rights running a ski trail through someones private property, the sky is the limit.

The most economicly stable nations are thoes with the least restrictions, enforce basic laws and let capitalism run its course (ie hong kong before it was taken back by china), its when you start trying to make all kinds of convouluted laws in an attempt to "control" your constituants that the system breaks down.

As long as there are enough people like me that dont tolerate the BS or accept the rationalization of the government to take away our rights we will be ok for the time being. But the problem is that the government conditions over generations until people like me die off and you have a nation of constituants that just takes it in the rear becasue "the law, statute whatever meets the needs of the nation, hiel hitler", we will give up our guns or our property because its for the greater good, that is nonsense thinking and the military is about 20 years ahead of the civilian world in that rationalization. Im living about 100 years ago in terms of my mind set and doing my own thing, but doing my own thing responsibly.

Currantly our democracy is a representitive democracy but more and more it has become the representitive telling the constituants what to do when it is suppost to be the other way around, and because of the big money game it has become you can elect out your currant representitive but chances are the next one wont be much better.

Also since these days personal freedoms are up for grabs by politicians you have to pick which freedoms you want to keep and which ones you want to give up when voting because each candidate has there own special interest hand fumbling around in the bill of rights. Republicans will wire tap and send you to iraq and democrates will take away your private property to set up a ski trail so its a crap shoot.

It is mind boggling to me espesially in the military how much crap people take because they are scared into doing it, I can gaurentee that our 1.5 million military are not cavscout hardliners and I would be curiouis as to how many we would have if they were free to leave.

I cant believe it only took us 200 or so years to reach such a degraded state. You wouldent have a bunch of small coutries fighting each other if people wernt always trying to exact control people dont want to be dictated to as to what they can do and how they can run there lives assuming the way they live does not negitivly affect there neighbor.

Cavscout wrote off life liberty and the pursuit of happieness so he could justify the actions of the army, I dont care what kind of memorandum you produce if my quality of life sucks and im not getting a return on investment of my time that is equivalant in value to the degraded state of living im in im going to walk and that is totally lagitamate, no one should let a contract waste years of there life, time is far more valualbe than a contract.

I think what happened in WW2 is the military was getting to far ahead of the civilian world with punching recruits, etc. I would be curiouis to see if the army returns to that type of insane behavior again.

I'd take Condi over Hillary any day of the week.

rppearso...start your own thread on what ails you.

Yea Gunny but what about for elected office?

I thought it was a closly related response to rocketter. There are alot of things that come into play when you are talking about things like a democracy.

quote:

Originally posted by thegunny:
rppearso...start your own thread on what ails you.

I'm beginning to think he truly can't see what he does. Not a psychologist, but taken a few classes.....(for what that's worth). I think there's so much overwhelming narcissism here that he can't ever relate to anything but to himself.

ooookay... let me see if I got the gist of rrpearso's world view..

1] he's living in the past [ 100 years ago or so ]

2] big business is only in it for the money

3] governments enact laws and put rules in place for no apparent reason just to screw up the ordinary person with no regard to personal freedoms and no desire to placate special interest groups/ constituent blocks/unique demographics and no desire to enhance anyone's way of life [ somehow honest people go completely bonkers/corrupt once elected to public office ]

4] the whole military might of the United States is out to get rrpearso and crush him body and soul because they are secretly a fascist cabal uncontrolled by the government thqat empowers them.

did I leave anything out?

oh, and by the way, rrpearso.. you seem to be upset at the government shoving a ski trail[?] through some land? If it was big business doing that to make more money for themselves, that would be okay, because at least they were honest about their motives? or am I reading you wrong, again..

I know, but for one that decries abuse from the military at every opportunity, he sure does make every effort to ensure it continues even in here....

"I know, but for one that decries abuse from the military at every opportunity, he sure does make every effort to ensure it continues even in here"

Thats because things that I witnessed and experenced in the military were a gross violation of constitutional rights and we have been conditioned to think oh its the military so thats ok that they have extremely limited rights and its not ok.

"big business is only in it for the money"

There are other reasons, like having a passion for your job, but you need to pay the bills and buy your farrari (which is ok).

"governments enact laws and put rules in place for no apparent reason just to screw up the ordinary person with no regard to personal freedoms and no desire to placate special interest groups/ constituent blocks/unique demographics and no desire to enhance anyone's way of life [ somehow honest people go completely bonkers/corrupt once elected to public office ]"

How many national representitives have a child in iraq? Im not saying we are going to start death camps tomorrow but there are alot of problems. The government enacted the UCMJ which higher ups use to lord over thoes that no longer want to be apart of the military. The fact that the government enabled the military to "hook people up" is unethical. I would have never known any of this crazyness if I had not done a year in the national guard, it definatly gave me a whole new outlook. Laws should never be made that negitivly effect anyones basic rights as layed out in the bill of rights, the constitution is a fairly simple document yet complicated legislation is passed in some cases to try to use fancy wording to cercumvent the constitution.

"the whole military might of the United States is out to get rrpearso and crush him body and soul because they are secretly a fascist cabal uncontrolled by the government thqat empowers them."

Nope and you know this is nonsense, the military system operates in a way that strips your rights in the name of meeting the needs of the military, people have become so conditioned to believing that, it is the norm now. If you sign up for one thing and get another, oh thats to bad for you, you signed the contract blah blah blah, if you want to try to rip me off I should have the option to walk, even if I get what I signed up for and its not what I thought it would be what right do you have to force me to stay other than by violating my rights.

Private property may only be taken (at fair market value mind you) for the greater good of the community (ie an interstate, bridge, etc) not a special interest ski trail. My rights as a property owner superceed thoes of a special interest group.

that should straighten out the spin you attempted to put on me.

hmmm, the mindless rants are getting longer and longer, perhpas he's taking a que from ol Rocketeers ocassional moments of lucidity.....

Ummm..is it just me or has anyone else noticed that while the theme of Kiddo's (reppearso) rants remain constant (poor me the victim) the details often are ....errr... flexible from one rant to another?

Just a question...I could be wrong (not).

At the risk of just prolonging the agony rrpearso.. I guess I'll reply to your latest ' rant '..

Who is to say that a ski trail isn't in the best interests of the community as it will benefit many of your fellow citizens by encouraging them to get off their fat asses and get some much needed exercise in the fresh air - perhaps you need it, too, to lose that excess avoirdupois you packed on to worm your way out of the military? If you were paid a fair price for the land or were duly expropriated by a legal application of the relevant local bylaws, etc.. all duly debated and voted on by the majority of duly elected public officials, how can you possibly complain about them when they are acting in the best interests of the majority? That's democracy in action at its basic level isn't it?

You think big business will be more enlightened and caring about your needs/wants when planning what it wants to do? At least with government you can vote out the motherf**kers who want to strip mine the schoolyard across the street, but if big business wants to buy the school and tear it down for an open pit mine, they sure as hell aren't going to take your upset into account unless you own a whackload of shares as shareholder value is all they care about..it's all about the money, feelings don't matter..

As for your constant droning on about being hosed by the military.. I can't speak for the US side of things but it surely can't be much different from my experience north of the 49.. The army invited you to sign on, gave you a battery of tests and assessed your aptitude and areas of interest and offered you the ' opportunity' , the ' chance ' the ' path.. whatever, toward the goal you and they felt could be achieved within the structure based on their needs and the available positions.. Hell, boy, you can't just walk in declare you want to be Chief of the Special Forces and expect them to hand it to you.. I bet somewhere in the papers you scribbled your X on there was a clause that said the military reserves the right to reassess your skills and to reassign you as necessary to the betterment and needs of the Army overall or to kick you the hell out if you turn out to be a class A Putz at any time...

You may have wanted to fly the Space Shuttle but there was no line in that contract that said you were guaranteed to do that no matter what..In civvie street you think that walking into Microsoft and putting on the application you want to take over from Bill Gates that they're going to let you without you learning the whole thing from the mail room on up and not have something in the fine print that says if anyone in authority over you thinks you can only handle changing toner ink in the copyroom you're still going to make CEO? if you are or might turn out to be an asshole they can't fire your butt?


now, for the last frigging time.. give this 'poor me; the army beat me and wasn't very nice at all and I want them to apologize and buy me an ice cream ' a bloody rest.

You screwed up Basic Training FFS!! be thankful that you weren't made Commander of the Red Nuke button after being issued your kit and having to explain to the UN how you wiped out half the Earth when you spilled your coffee on the console..

"You may have wanted to fly the Space Shuttle but there was no line in that contract that said you were guaranteed to do that no matter what..In civvie street you think that walking into Microsoft and putting on the application you want to take over from Bill Gates that they're going to let you without you learning the whole thing from the mail room on up and not have something in the fine print that says if anyone in authority over you thinks you can only handle changing toner ink in the copyroom you're still going to make CEO? if you are or might turn out to be an asshole they can't fire your butt?"

You are correct, but at least in a company if you dont like changing toner ink out or get tired of it, you can walk away. If I had went to the civilian flight school and found out I couldent fly for whatever reason I would simply stop training and go home, not stop training and be shuffled into infantry or combat arms where someone like me would get someone killed.

The scary thing is the military did not weed me out I weeded my self out because I got fed up, imagin if I had just drudged through it got shuffled into infantry and been a platton leader of an infantry group, that would have been a nightmare for everyone, and the military would have let it happen because there was no quality control all you had to do in basic was pass PT and shoot a rifle, in OCS all I would have had to do is pretend like I was trying and pass most of the tests on the margin and I could have gotten alot of people killed, does that make sense.

My passion and skill is in flight and nothing else (at least that the military has to offer), so why push someone through that does not want to be there that may very well get someone else killed.

Ask yourself this question, would you want me as your platton leader (leaving out all the hoaky nonsense about shooting the platton leader in the back crap). I wanted to fly an aircraft thats it, thats equivalant to signing up to drive a tank or a truck not to walk in and be the supreme joint forces commander