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What is " winding down " ?
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Sergeant

Registered: 24 November 2012
Posts: 65
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
People would rather have their Social Security and Medicare than waste it on misadventures of choice.

Your reasoning for us to invade sovereign countries does not hold up well since Iraq's lack of WMD's after 1991. The main reason pointed out by Colin Powell at the UN.

As for non-state actors, isn't that why we have the intelligence agencies? So we don't waste lives and money over nothing.

Just pointing out the obvious. There will always be attacks and terrorism. You don't make more enemies by invading their home.
General

Picture of thegunny
Registered: 24 January 2005
Posts: 6036
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
First off, I wasn't justifying the Iraqi invasion. Secondly, none of the efforts in that region are impacting social security or medicare. Congress are the ones that rob from those areas of funding, not the DOD. As for there will always be terrorists and more attacks? So we are to sit back and do nothing, and wait for the next one? Just let them have their way in the world after what they did? Do you really think for one minute that if they could get their hands on biological weapons or enough radioactive material, that they wouldn't use it on us in soome manner? What stands in their way is our military acting on available intel. In order to do that with any chance of success is to act OVER there. You can't do it from Newark, Pittsburg or Atlanta.

By the by, we are not hunting down people over nothing. There is a detailed report on all the bombings against US military and embassies going back to October 1983 in Beruit. (I was there for that one) You should look it up and read it as I seriously doubt all the families of those killed during these attacks would agree with anything you are pointing out.

Point of note, Afganistan didn't even have a government until we created order and made it so they could hold an election. In Iraq, we removed a ruthless dictator whose favorite pasttime was practicing genocide on his own people among other things.

Did you study law at Berkley? Just curious as you appear to have been drinking the berkley koolaid.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: thegunny,


SEMPER FI
The Gunny

Dear Lord
So far today, God, I've done alright
I haven't gossiped
I haven't lost my temper
I haven't been greedy, grumpy, nasty, selfish, or even over-indulgent.
I'm really glad about that.

But in the next few minutes, God,
I'm going to get out of bed,
AND from then on, I'm probably going to need a lot of your help.

AMEN.....

"I don't have a problem with God, it's his Fan Club I can't stand".

(my mind has chewed though the leash again and is on the loose!)
General

Registered: 03 October 2007
Posts: 4623
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
http://bigstory.ap.org/article...an-attacks-incorrect

The bottom line is what it is. I wonder when President Obama is going to " wind up " on fictional " wind downs " considering our enemies are always " wound up ".
"Curmudgeon
Vietnam Vet Still Kicking
"
General

Picture of HarryP
Location: Washtenaw County, Michigan
Registered: 21 January 2005
Posts: 6114
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
I wonder how he made these people make a mistake?


If it weren't for the United States Military,
There'd be NO United States of America!

Steven Ellison, MD
A MILITARY DOCTOR

Only two defining forces have ever offered to
die for you:
1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
General

Registered: 03 October 2007
Posts: 4623
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
I wonder why you don't care what Obama does : EVER. Roll Eyes
General

Picture of thegunny
Registered: 24 January 2005
Posts: 6036
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
Probably because the system (Congress and Senate, and the people that keep re-electing these boob's) is what makes things the way they are and not just the one man sitting in the Oval office.

Besides, lets face it, you and harry are polar opposites politically even if you are both republicans!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: thegunny,


SEMPER FI
The Gunny

Dear Lord
So far today, God, I've done alright
I haven't gossiped
I haven't lost my temper
I haven't been greedy, grumpy, nasty, selfish, or even over-indulgent.
I'm really glad about that.

But in the next few minutes, God,
I'm going to get out of bed,
AND from then on, I'm probably going to need a lot of your help.

AMEN.....

"I don't have a problem with God, it's his Fan Club I can't stand".

(my mind has chewed though the leash again and is on the loose!)
"Curmudgeon
Vietnam Vet Still Kicking
"
General

Picture of HarryP
Location: Washtenaw County, Michigan
Registered: 21 January 2005
Posts: 6114
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
I'm actually an Independent, I have always split my ticket. All I did was read Poon's post and saw no reason for the Obama remark.


If it weren't for the United States Military,
There'd be NO United States of America!

Steven Ellison, MD
A MILITARY DOCTOR

Only two defining forces have ever offered to
die for you:
1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
General

Registered: 03 October 2007
Posts: 4623
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
Of course you did because President Obama is your hero. The sooner you admit it the better you will feel HarryP. Just trying to help. Smiler
Sergeant

Registered: 24 November 2012
Posts: 65
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
Iraq wasn't worth it.
--------------------------

Audit: U.S. lost track of $9 billion in Iraq funds

Monday, January 31, 2005 Posted: 0412 GMT (1212 HKT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) — Nearly $9 billion of money spent on Iraqi reconstruction is unaccounted for because of inefficiencies and bad management, according to a watchdog report published Sunday.

An inspector general’s report said the U.S.-led administration that ran Iraq until June 2004 is unable to account for the funds. “Severe inefficiencies and poor management” by the Coalition Provisional Authority has left auditors with no guarantee the money was properly used,” the report said.

“The CPA did not establish or implement sufficient managerial, financial and contractual controls to ensure that [Development Fund for Iraq] funds were used in a transparent manner,” said Stuart W. Bowen Jr., director of the Office of the Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction.
-----------------------------------------
WASHINGTON (AP) — Ten years and $60 billion in American taxpayer funds later, Iraq is still so unstable and broken that even its leaders question whether U.S. efforts to rebuild the war-torn nation were worth the cost.

In his final report to Congress, Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction Stuart Bowen’s conclusion was all too clear: Since the invasion a decade ago this month, the U.S. has spent too much money in Iraq for too few results.

The reconstruction effort “grew to a size much larger than was ever anticipated,” Bowen told The Associated Press in a preview of his last audit of U.S. funds spent in Iraq, to be released Wednesday. “Not enough was accomplished for the size of the funds expended.”

In interviews with Bowen, Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said the U.S. funding “could have brought great change in Iraq” but fell short too often. “There was misspending of money,” said al-Maliki, a Shiite Muslim whose sect makes up about 60 percent of Iraq’s population.

Iraqi Parliament Speaker Osama al-Nujaifi, the country’s top Sunni Muslim official, told auditors that the rebuilding efforts “had unfavorable outcomes in general.”

“You think if you throw money at a problem, you can fix it,” Kurdish government official Qubad Talabani, son of Iraqi president Jalal Talabani, told auditors. “It was just not strategic thinking.”

The abysmal Iraq results forecast what could happen in Afghanistan, where U.S. taxpayers have so far spent $90 billion in reconstruction projects during a 12-year military campaign that, for the most part, ends in 2014.

Shortly after the March 2003 invasion, Congress set up a $2.4 billion fund to help ease the sting of war for Iraqis. It aimed to rebuild Iraq’s water and electricity systems; provide food, health care and governance for its people; and take care of those who were forced from their homes in the fighting. Fewer than six months later, President George W. Bush asked for $20 billion more to further stabilize Iraq and help turn it into an ally that could gain economic independence and reap global investments.

To date, the U.S. has spent more than $60 billion in reconstruction grants to help Iraq get back on its feet after the country that has been broken by more than two decades of war, sanctions and dictatorship. That works out to about $15 million a day.

And yet Iraq’s government is rife with corruption and infighting. Baghdad’s streets are still cowed by near-daily deadly bombings. A quarter of the country’s 31 million population lives in poverty, and few have reliable electricity and clean water.

Overall, including all military and diplomatic costs and other aid, the U.S. has spent at least $767 billion since the American-led invasion, according to the Congressional Budget Office. National Priorities Project, a U.S. research group that analyzes federal data, estimated the cost at $811 billion, noting that some funds are still being spent on ongoing projects.

Sen. Susan Collins, a member of the Senate committee that oversees U.S. funding, said the Bush administration should have agreed to give the reconstruction money to Iraq as a loan in 2003 instead as an outright gift.

“It’s been an extraordinarily disappointing effort and, largely, a failed program,” Collins, R-Maine, said in an interview Tuesday. “I believe, had the money been structured as a loan in the first place, that we would have seen a far more responsible approach to how the money was used, and lower levels of corruption in far fewer ways.”

—In Iraq’s eastern Diyala province, a crossroads for Shiite militias, Sunni insurgents and Kurdish squatters, the U.S. began building a 3,600-bed prison in 2004 but abandoned the project after three years to flee a surge in violence. The half-completed Khan Bani Sa’ad Correctional Facility cost American taxpayers $40 million but sits in rubble, and Iraqi Justice Ministry officials say they have no plans to ever finish or use it.

—Subcontractors for Anham LLC, based in Vienna, Va., overcharged the U.S. government thousands of dollars for supplies, including $900 for a control switch valued at $7.05 and $80 for a piece of pipe that costs $1.41. Anham was hired to maintain and operate warehouses and supply centers near Baghdad’s international airport and the Persian Gulf port at Umm Qasr.

— A $108 million wastewater treatment center in the city of Fallujah, a former al-Qaida stronghold in western Iraq, will have taken eight years longer to build than planned when it is completed in 2014 and will only service 9,000 homes. Iraqi officials must provide an additional $87 million to hook up most of the rest of the city, or 25,000 additional homes.

—After blowing up the al-Fatah bridge in north-central Iraq during the invasion and severing a crucial oil and gas pipeline, U.S. officials decided to try to rebuild the pipeline under the Tigris River at a cost of $75 million. A geological study predicted the project might fail, and it did: Eventually, the bridge and pipelines were repaired at an additional cost of $29 million.

—A widespread ring of fraud led by a former U.S. Army officer resulted in tens of millions of dollars in kickbacks and the criminal convictions of 22 people connected to government contracts for bottled water and other supplies at the Iraqi reconstruction program’s headquarters at Camp Arifjan, Kuwait.

In too many cases, Bowen concluded, U.S. officials did not consult with Iraqis closely or deeply enough to determine what reconstruction projects were really needed or, in some cases, wanted. As a result, Iraqis took limited interest in the work, often walking away from half-finished programs, refusing to pay their share, or failing to maintain completed projects once they were handed over.

Deputy Prime Minister Hussain al-Shahristani, a Shiite, described the projects as well intentioned, but poorly prepared and inadequately supervised.

The missed opportunities were not lost on at least 15 senior State and Defense department officials interviewed in the report, including ambassadors and generals, who were directly involved in rebuilding Iraq.

One key lesson learned in Iraq, Deputy Secretary of State William Burns told auditors, is that the U.S. cannot expect to “do it all and do it our way. We must share the burden better multilaterally and engage the host country constantly on what is truly needed.”

Army Chief of Staff Ray Odierno, who was the top U.S. military commander in Iraq from 2008 to 2010, said “it would have been better to hold off spending large sums of money” until the country stabilized.

About a third of the $60 billion was spent to train and equip Iraqi security forces, which had to be rebuilt after the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority disbanded Saddam’s army in 2003. Today, Iraqi forces have varying successes in safekeeping the public and only limited ability to secure their land, air and sea borders.

The report also cites Defense Secretary Leon Panetta as saying that the 2011 withdrawal of American troops from Iraq weakened U.S. influence in Baghdad. Panetta has since left office when former Sen. Chuck Hagel took over the defense job last week. Washington is eyeing a similar military drawdown next year in Afghanistan, where U.S. taxpayers have spent $90 billion so far on rebuilding projects.

The Afghanistan effort risks falling into the same problems that mired Iraq if oversight isn’t coordinated better. In Iraq, officials were too eager to build in the middle of a civil war, and too often raced ahead without solid plans or back-up plans, the report concluded.

Most of the work was done in piecemeal fashion, as no single government agency had responsibility for all of the money spent. The State Department, for example, was supposed to oversee reconstruction strategy starting in 2004, but controlled only about 10 percent of the money at stake. The vast majority of the projects — 75 percent — were paid for by the Defense Department.
General

Picture of thegunny
Registered: 24 January 2005
Posts: 6036
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
And the guidebook to rebuilding a nation torn up by war is located where exactly? Perhaps someone forgot to return it to the library of congress after WWII? Hey, didn't you check it out last and not return it?

This is what happens when you wage war. It costs more than only the blood of your militaries best and brightest.

History has shown that the last place one wants directing and doling out money is the DOD. Not exactly thier kind of work is it? They are excellent at rearranging the molecular structure of cities and infrastructure, not so good at putting it all back after they just got finished blowing it all up.

But we digress here, this isn't about winding down is it? pointing out all the mistakes made in a war?


SEMPER FI
The Gunny

Dear Lord
So far today, God, I've done alright
I haven't gossiped
I haven't lost my temper
I haven't been greedy, grumpy, nasty, selfish, or even over-indulgent.
I'm really glad about that.

But in the next few minutes, God,
I'm going to get out of bed,
AND from then on, I'm probably going to need a lot of your help.

AMEN.....

"I don't have a problem with God, it's his Fan Club I can't stand".

(my mind has chewed though the leash again and is on the loose!)
Sergeant

Registered: 24 November 2012
Posts: 65
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
The Marshall Plan was completely different from the Iraq and you know it.

Fighting a war to keep Republican donors happy: Mercenaries (Blackwater), war profiteers (Boeing, Lockheed, etc.), and oil companies (Exxon, Halliburton, etc.).

Republicans care more about military contractors that the military itself. It's common knowledge.

Anybody who is still a Bush apologist after Iraq needs to be put in a padded room.
"Curmudgeon
Vietnam Vet Still Kicking
"
General

Picture of HarryP
Location: Washtenaw County, Michigan
Registered: 21 January 2005
Posts: 6114
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
As someone who is not a Republican -- this is your opinion an not fact. Look up the difference.


If it weren't for the United States Military,
There'd be NO United States of America!

Steven Ellison, MD
A MILITARY DOCTOR

Only two defining forces have ever offered to
die for you:
1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
General

Picture of thegunny
Registered: 24 January 2005
Posts: 6036
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
Wow, so now I am a Bush apologist and need to be tossed into a padded cell?

Just so you KNOW who you are aiming at in here son, I served in Desert Shield and Desert Storm and that was to kick Iraq out of Kuwait which took all of 96 hours from the first shot fired by us. And yes the President at that time was Bush.


SEMPER FI
The Gunny

Dear Lord
So far today, God, I've done alright
I haven't gossiped
I haven't lost my temper
I haven't been greedy, grumpy, nasty, selfish, or even over-indulgent.
I'm really glad about that.

But in the next few minutes, God,
I'm going to get out of bed,
AND from then on, I'm probably going to need a lot of your help.

AMEN.....

"I don't have a problem with God, it's his Fan Club I can't stand".

(my mind has chewed though the leash again and is on the loose!)
Sergeant

Registered: 24 November 2012
Posts: 65
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
H.W. Bush's Iraq war was a war of necessity at the time. However, Bush's Iraq war was a war of choice.

When you bring down an infrastructure expect a civil war and anarchy. Obviously they didn't learn from what happened in Japan when MacArthur visited.
General

Picture of thegunny
Registered: 24 January 2005
Posts: 6036
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
and I still get tossed into a padded cell?


SEMPER FI
The Gunny

Dear Lord
So far today, God, I've done alright
I haven't gossiped
I haven't lost my temper
I haven't been greedy, grumpy, nasty, selfish, or even over-indulgent.
I'm really glad about that.

But in the next few minutes, God,
I'm going to get out of bed,
AND from then on, I'm probably going to need a lot of your help.

AMEN.....

"I don't have a problem with God, it's his Fan Club I can't stand".

(my mind has chewed though the leash again and is on the loose!)
Sergeant

Registered: 24 November 2012
Posts: 65
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
Do you still think that Bush's invasion of Iraq in 2003 was a good idea? All facts and evidence points otherwise.
"Curmudgeon
Vietnam Vet Still Kicking
"
General

Picture of HarryP
Location: Washtenaw County, Michigan
Registered: 21 January 2005
Posts: 6114
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
Wars are usually by choice for one side and sometimes for both.


If it weren't for the United States Military,
There'd be NO United States of America!

Steven Ellison, MD
A MILITARY DOCTOR

Only two defining forces have ever offered to
die for you:
1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
General

Picture of thegunny
Registered: 24 January 2005
Posts: 6036
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
I am still conflicted over the how this came about, but in the end I am more than satisfied with the execution of Saddam Hussian and his government consisting of criminals.

I am sorely disappointed with the intelligence community for these documented failures regarding WMD and the trail to the taliban pointing us there. Remember, we were still hunting those that attacked us on 9/01/01.

I have never presumed to question the judgement of a sitting President. Its just not my place to judge him. He was presented with information that will never see the light of day due to its classification. (perhaps in 50 to 75 years it will come out) But I still trust in the sitting President to make the decisions he has to make for any given situation. This is why we elect them to that office. Frankly to me it doesn't matter who is sitting in that office, they would very likely reach the exact smae conclusion when presented with the same facts.


SEMPER FI
The Gunny

Dear Lord
So far today, God, I've done alright
I haven't gossiped
I haven't lost my temper
I haven't been greedy, grumpy, nasty, selfish, or even over-indulgent.
I'm really glad about that.

But in the next few minutes, God,
I'm going to get out of bed,
AND from then on, I'm probably going to need a lot of your help.

AMEN.....

"I don't have a problem with God, it's his Fan Club I can't stand".

(my mind has chewed though the leash again and is on the loose!)
Sergeant

Registered: 24 November 2012
Posts: 65
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
At least Al Gore would've payed attention to those intelligence reports before 9/11 and not be on vacation most of his first term. Also, Iraq would've never happened under Gore.
General

Picture of thegunny
Registered: 24 January 2005
Posts: 6036
posted   Hide PostReply With QuoteReport This Post  
The inventor of the Internet? That Al Gore? Yeah, you are probably right and Saddam would still be gassing the Kurds and planning his next incursion into Iran or Saudi.

You have noticed that he has accomplished next to nothing since he left office? And almost nothing when he was in it?


SEMPER FI
The Gunny

Dear Lord
So far today, God, I've done alright
I haven't gossiped
I haven't lost my temper
I haven't been greedy, grumpy, nasty, selfish, or even over-indulgent.
I'm really glad about that.

But in the next few minutes, God,
I'm going to get out of bed,
AND from then on, I'm probably going to need a lot of your help.

AMEN.....

"I don't have a problem with God, it's his Fan Club I can't stand".

(my mind has chewed though the leash again and is on the loose!)
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