Yes it is because the new Lt's don't know what the hell they are doing so someone has to keep the troops alive.

rrpearso: " I don't know what you're talking about "

Yup, that about answers my question and sums it up for me. You never did cotton on to what ' they were talking about ' and so never got the insight into what maks the military what it is and why...best thing you did for youself and the army was take yourself out of it.

I've read enough of Pearson's posts to know what he's thinking about all of this.

Keeping in mind his previous posts, and that is part of our human nature to deny our own weaknesses, he attributes his failure to adapt to the military mission as the military's fault.

That is, he thinks only those of limited cognitive abilities would allow themselves to go through the "hazing" techniques employed by the US military. He is simply too smart to allow himself to be treated like that; if the military didn't recognize his greatness, it was their loss.

Now picture this, it's an observation based on my own parental experiences.

Dad puts his 12 month old son in the car seat for a 20 minute drive. Twenty minutes, not long right? It's forever to this year old kid, and he's tired, so he's crying and generally miserable.

Dad feels bad, and thinks to himself "bud, if you were just a little older, a little more mature, you would understand that this is just something we have to do to get from here to there. There's no magic teleportation, sometimes you just have to endure the trip to get where you need to be."

Hey there is airwinger, I liked the post someone made, I think it was in the recruiting section about how alot of "training" is some gunnys chance to "chastise" an officer candidate because after the OC is pinned he is reduced to making a suggestion. That does not sound like lagitimate training to me that sounds like the gunny trying to get his before im in a position to do something about it, and that is hazing. I understand training its when trainers go out of there way to make your life extra bad because of your MOS (09S), thats rediculus and provides no added value in training, it just makes a sgt feel good becasue he got to haze an OC and he knows I wont go back to the training base to write him up for bad conduct during my training.

And that's the point pearson; you'll always be talking about what you heard.

But you're talking to people who have seen, and not just heard, so you understand the relatively good natured contempt that you generated for yourself around here.

I just think its ignorant to take what the military says "lawful orders" as a gospel out of the bible. Just becuase some general produces a memorandum dosent mean im just going to buy into it because I signed up to defend the country. Its like some people dont know how to think for themselves, the military gets away with alot of stupid shit because no one questions it and if you do your disobaying a "lawful order" whatever. It seems like it has to be something so vile before some of you would even consider questioning a decision. And its not just what I hear I have been there and done that and that is exactly what happened to me in basic oh this guy is a hot shit OC lets terrorize him, when what it really comes down to is I had the motivation to go to school.

okay rrpearso, just to keep this thread going and to see how deep a hole you can dig.. what " something vile " were you ordered to do in your basic ' been there, done that ' situation as directed by the general?

what? Nothing vile happened in basic, Im just curious if you even got the main point of my last post? I can cut and paste what I just wrote. Im saying that some of you have the attitude that you accept what you are told as gospel unless it is an extreme case (example: private go murder that village of women and children, most probably would not do it), but im talking about lesser things like the new memorandum that army personal (and only army) can no longer carry concealed weapons on or off post (I understand the whole on post thing I dont need a divergance from the point with the on post issue, its the generals base yada yada nor do I need to "justify why I need a concealed weapon) im talking about off post, if I choose to carry a weapon off post thats my thing and the fact that they even attempted to scare people into accepting the decsion (using the whole "lawful order" concept is offensive). This same argument could be used for the memorandum that the army produced stating what was hazing that diverged from the rest of the countrys concept of hazing to not include many things that are in fact hazing. I think its spooky that so many just accept what is dictated to them by some general, politician, etc on how they should run there lives, down to weather or not you can carry a weapon or have oral sex (sodomy according to the military)

Why do they have a bell in SEAL training but not basic training? So they will let you quit SEAL but not basic?

good example:
the militqary, like the police, are held to a higher standard in the public eye than the ordinary citizen.. The soldier reflects the branch of service 24/7 as well, even out of uniform it is expected that s/he behave in an exemplary manner [tough to do, all the time, I admit ].. So, carrying a gun, with the implication that it canbe used puts anonue on the soldier that isn't there on Joe Average.. If it was drawn and used, the locals would assume that there was an unfair advantage [ over your usual gun-toter ] because of the training and discipline and ability imparted to the soldier through his training and understanding.. Ever notice why the GI is hung up to dry if caught drunk or doing something stupid like rape or something else? It is always more heinous more ' newsworthy' to the press, more, somehow, evil, than if some guy off the street did the same things..
Add to that the fact that , the military takes an oath to uphold, etc, etc., samer as cops, and implicitly agrees to stand by it, in uniform and out..[ never ' of duty ' ] then you can see why crrying a personal gun isn't smiled upon - and if you can't see that, then you weren't in long enough or were too stupid to learn and that was one of the reasons the drills were trying to drum it into you, along with so much more,..

one small lesson not asborbed...

rppearso:

you are right...this is better than the UFO blogs...except for those photos of the
women from venus...


A point about the Law. You signed a contract when entering the Military. Basic Training is one of the clauses. You signed a contract that you would complete basic and maybe your GT scores and interests and Army needs allowed for a Guaranty of a slot in a certain MOS...maybe even a signup $bonus$ which would be a benifit conditional upon your service...like the GI BILL.

The bell in SEAL training is there to free up the resources and slot being used for this highly specialized training. Why waste it on
someone who cannot or will not complete the course? SEAL training is an earned privilege,
not a right.

Even after SEAL training...there might come a time a sailor commands a desk or whatever.

(you could still be useful somewhere else...like
the mess hall...remember the Casey Ryback
hollywood character in the 'under seige' movies? That cook had earned two Navy Crosses...
yet the Navy saw fit to have him serve up chow
and he did this assignment well...not refusing to accept 'orders'...even if the 'order' was full of Navy beans)

Respect for authority is an intregal part of a Military career.

As an Army Soldier...you are not to obey 'un' Lawful orders...like The Mei Li Massacre of Vietnam or the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse in Iraq. You will be held accountable for your actions. Especially 'war crimes' like the
Nuremberg War Crime Trials...where the defence of 'I vas only followink ordors' didn't hold
sour kraut (so to speak).

However you must obey Lawful orders including the ones you don't agree with...like not carrying unauthorized weapons or in gagging in sodomy...and IF you disobey (don't ask, don't tell and don't get caught) the UCMJ book might be thrown at you!

The Army is pretty good at seeing you learn important behaviour survival skills like: If you can't move it, Paint it. and If it has a switchblade knife, Salute it! It would behoove you to Listen up and comply with instructions
etc..

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Weatherman1956,

I like the little drill sgt graphic at the end there. However I am not a fall into line kinda guy. All of the fighting and work the founders of this country did can all be changed with a memorandum that a general makes on his computer. Only 19 were hung, the upper eschelon of Nazi leadership the rest were let go, even concentration camp leaders becasue the germans kept them under fear that if they dident do it they would go to the russian front or just straight up be killed, kinda the way our military works to a degree, if you can keep people under enough fear you can get them to do you bidding, like in basic where they constantly threaten being recycled.

rrpearso!!

Are you equating the Rules and Conduct of the American Military, as expressed by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the generals under them, to the the Nazi High Command.. that they have a perverse need to punish, humilite and otherwise impress on recruits unbearable and unnecessary tasks and drills simply for the joy of breaking your will?

Gosh!.. Who knew??

you were right to refuse those gawdawful orders and escape when you did..

Cool so we finally got some truth. The only difference is we dont have concentration camps at least not in our borders. Always remember that history is writen by the winners. Our contry was founded by god fearing men and on principals but that was a long time ago. and I dont even want to hear about the dotted line BS the founding fathers of this country were commiting treason against the crown. The military was asking me to tolerate things I did not agree with, was it blowing up a school, nope, but it was bad enought to make me walk away. I was wadding in shit I did not want to drown in.

AMAZING!! You discovered the hidden agenda the Joint Chiefs were perpetrating on the unsuspecting masses just moments after learning how to tie your boots in proper Mil Fashion..

Of course you wouldn't tolerate such things..no, no.. .

no wonder Iraq is a quagmire and disaster, if you could see through the subtrefuge how could one not expect the Iraqi people not to see it, too..

Who would have thought that having Drill Sgts yell at you because you failed to make your bed with tight corners would lead to the downfall of the American Empire [ don't be too sure that it won't happen in your lifetime//dumber nuts than you have caused widespread havoc...]

its not too late for you to run for the office of the President, become the Commander-in-Chief and fire the asses of all those corrupt Military types at the Pentagon and then bring in touchy-feely training techniques where macrame classes replace learning how to dig latrines...
seems to me that life asks you to tolerate things you don't agree with, perhaps you'd like to leave that as well?

Oh this is getting better and better. I gotta get me what rppearso is on. Maybe I way a magic wand and fix all these cars around here, or just talk them into fixing themselves.
You guys explained it as explained as you can and he still don't get it.
You sign up in the military, you work for them in a job that demands leadership, teamwork. That is the job skill spelled out in the contract, and as far as the hazing, I can just imaging the face on your D S when you told him you weren't going to do something. Did you really think that there was no challege to this job?