You are successful becasue you are motivated not because you are in the military.

This technology is far and away done by all civilians. Civilians are uncontrollable, and less than 10% of the civilian populace can qualify for security clearances needed to work these programs. Additionally, entitlement politics at work for over 20 years in this country, makes "professionals" such as yourself think you are worth above average paychecks because of your schooling. Thereby, driving up operating costs for the Defense budget, driving up taxes, and pissing Joe Taxpayer off. Its just not prudent business. It'll always boil down to the Almighty Dollar.

This is one time I have to say what you are saying doesnt really make any sense. Are you saying you agree that civilians make technology happen when you say "This technology is far and away done by all civilians". Am I clear on this, you think that highly educated engineers and scientists are uncontrollable and way over paid? Why dont you have a chemical engineering degree from the colorado school of mines or an electrical engineering degree from MIT, if we are way over paid, because anyone can develope new microprocessors and missle chips. You may have just responded in anger because you feel that people should be controlled and dictated to, kinda like the Nazi's did. Security clearances are way over rated, the sidewinder missile was designed by 4 scientists and engineers in a garage, the mathamatical formulas for stealth technology were developed by a russian at his desk. Lets not forget about doctors who might save your life, they get direct commissions (thats gotta really piss you off) they circumvent all of the BS. They are not that hard to get either, my friends wife works for ratheon and has a security clearance, if you have a reason to have one and dident do smak and rob a convient store you will get one.

Direct Commissions do not circumvent any training. They still have to pass all of the entrance procedures everyone does, including Basic Combat Training. Granted, when the head of Cardiology from the University of Texas Medical Center was commissioned as a Colonel; did not have to attend any AIT, because he is top in his field; he still attended BCT, and a Advanced Officer Medical Course.

I don't have a degree in any form of engineering; thats not what I majored in. Thats why. I went to the top school in the Nation for what I majored in; Computer Animation/Multi-media/Web Site Administration. Where is YOUR degree from MIT? Lets be realistic about your chosen field, and mine. How many of your peers are starting off with such high wages? Damn few. Your lauded scientists that developed the Sidewinder missile in a garage is unfounded. They may have theorized proportional pursuit, but I'm sure Naval Ordnance Test Station, Inyokern, CA will still take credit. Specifically, because the AIM-9 series of missiles were built on a German IR technology from WWII; utilizing pure pursuit methods.

Even in the chemical engineering field, there are only a reported 28,590 people in the profession. (ref. Bureau of Labor Statistics: www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_17ar.htm) with a median income of less than $85,000 a year, with a marginal error of less than 1%. Compound that income with cost of living needs at the current rate, bills, student loans, etc. and you are barely above the poverty line. So I wouldn't get too excited to think engineers are going to make a huge salary. Especially, when the 343,530+ mid-level to low-level managers pull down near $83,000, so you're in the same boat with them. Must really irritate you to think someone from the local community college with an Associate's Degree is making the same salary as your Colorado School of Mine's Bachelor's is. And yes, I think they are overpaid. Yes, I think all employees should be controlled and dictated to, just like a Nazi. Thats how the employer-employee process works, you do what I say, when I say, how I say, you get paid; otherwise, I fire you and find someone who will do what I want. What world do you live in? You can't do whatever you want in the working world, you'll always have a boss that tells you what to do, period.

Drugs and Larceny are definitive impacts on the ability to obtain a security clearance, you are right. But try that more than 60% of Americans have significant financial debt, which will prevent a clearance as well. Its more than criminal history, wiseguy. Finances, Foreign activity, employment history, residential history, citizenship, criminal background, your association record all play key parts in the determination of granting a clearance. Additionally, all clearances granted to civilian contractor personnel are on a need-know basis, even the lowest level, because they don't measure in the DoD/NSA Personnel Reliability Program. If you think a clearance is so easy, try and get one yourself; your excellent military record will obviously help you get it[/sarcasm.]

Between me and my wife we do quite a bit better than poverty, I agree managers and administrators make more (if your lucky) but I like what I do and I have alot of flexability, I am told to work on a project, here do all of the utilities to this turbine and I do it, my boss does not scream or yell and if I have a technical question I can talk to him just like any other engineer, its not a he says jump I say how high relationship. Just to clarify doctors go through an abriviated BCT not the whole 10 weeks, I think the bottem line is the military does not have a severe shortage or special need for engineers or they too would get the abriviated BCT/OCS combo fast track. I dont care so much about the money its more the quality of life, if I have to dig ditches and peel potatoes while someone is yelling at me and degrading me the cost is going to be alot higher and even in that case I am only going to take it so long until the money is not enough and I will just leave. That is kinda interesting that you mention being fired, I wonder why the military does not follow the same logic. The guard was willing to give me a security clearance and I had 70,000 in debt, so im not sure how far in debt you have to be before it becomes an issue. Thats pretty typical of the military to take credit for others work, but the history channel does a good job of recognizing thoes individuals that made it happen, and in the case of the sidewinder they did not use government money for what ever development they made. At least Robert Oppenhiemer and Enstine recieved credit for the atomic bomb and werent just shuffled away by the military.

This is the last time I'll entertain a response.
When you start talking about AMEDD Direct Commissioning programs, that is solely my field of Recruiting. It doesn't matter how you slice it, even Doctors go through a 9-week BCT just like everyone else. Its called OBC, Officer Basic Course. Oddly, AMEDD has the longest OBC(9 weeks), before going on to AOC (Area of Concentration)Training from 6 days to 16 weeks, depending on specialty. Whereas, the other Officers in the Army, go to 9 weeks of BCT, then OCS, then a Basic Course ranging in 6 days to 5 weeks. So all in all, the training time is negligible, just whatever acronym you want to call it, its the same. There is no such thing as special cases in the military. No one is special.
The military tries to avoid "firing" people. We take it on the notion, when you swear or affirm, before God or whomever, that you will fulfill an obligation, you should do it. Weird that we trust people at their word. So, if they fail to uphold their end of the deal, we give them more than one chance, too. Then, rather than fulfill their commitment, they want out (also known as quit), we "hook" them up with General Discharges, Other Than Honorables, etc.
As for the Guard "giving" you a security clearance, I say "Ha!" because it is laughable. You have to deserve it, so $70,000 in debt wouldn't have ever worked, ever! Even Active Duty personnel's SSBIs don't come back in less than 8 months, let alone secret or higher. And you weren't in long enough, all that was run was a standard FBI Tech Check at MEPS, and ENTNAC.
Official Congressional Oversight Reports are pretty accurate at giving the proper people credit for their contributions to military technology. Building IR tracking, intermittent radar pulse homing missiles in your garage, isn't exactly what we call "good." Even in the 1950s. Specifically, a garage isn't exactly where you would develop solid-fuel engines, or synthetic integrated circuit boards, nor develop a supersonic windtunnel to test the flight dynamics of said prototype missile.
Then again, maybe 6 years of weapons knowledge isn't enough to judge, I could be wrong. It is possible, however impropable.

Well it was good talking to you CavScout, you gave me alot of good insights into the military I wish I would have had before I joined. So with my debt I would have been inelegible for flight school OBC anyways and had went through OCS for nothing at least I will get VA benifits from basic from my injurys.

Glad I missed this topic.. To much heated debation which is a good thing. Learn new things daily. But of course some of it BS.

Heated debate is fun. Its good to get some nasty skeletons out in the open as well. You see cool stuff on army commercials like blackhawks and tanks but you dont get to see what you will be doing (digging fox holes and possibly using antiquated M-16's. And even if you do get to see the cool technology the military has a way to make life sucky, just because im using a "laser cannon (or fill in what ever high tech piece of equipment)" doesnt mean an asshole sergant cant still degrade me or act like a crazy nut because I forgot to shave (or whatever menial task that is not using the cool toys), thoes are the things that need to be brought to the surface. They portray this deceptive advertising and wonder why qualified individuals have better things to do.

Discipline is the soul of an army. It makes small numbers formidable; procures success to the weak and esteem to all.

GEORGE WASHINGTON, 1759

A point you seem to not understand rppearso.

I do understand disipline, I would not have made it through college with out disipline, however that does not change the fact that the military uses deceptive advertising (which was my original point). In addition to disipline you need to have focus, without focus, disipline is not even a relavant adjective. You have to have the disipline to remain focused, but I have to have a reason to stay focused in the first place, and having soldiers around me acting crazy because I did not do something that doesnt matter (shaving, haircut, shined boots, etc) causes me and others to loose focus of what matters (your MOS, learning to fly, refueling planes, packing parachutes, etc) and there was an excessive amount of time spent on shit that is not relavant to anything, by the time I would have gotten to anything relavant I could have had a jet rating in the civilian world.

I have incredible focus and disipline to see that focus through and anything that diverges from that focus is wasted time.

But my original point was the army should advertise what they really do, a bunch of privates digging fox holes and going on long ass road marches for no reason, and not show the activities that less than 1% (or whatever low percentage) of the army does (flying apaches/blackhawks, commanding M1-A2 battle tanks and running satalites, its a sham and you know it. The contracts are generic and thoes jobs are few.

Geez...still going on about getting yelled at for not shining yer boots and forgetting to shave?

You state that you have all the discipline you need, yet where was the discipline to follow orders?

You wanted the govt to just give you everything your desired, and all they wanted was for you to prove that you could handle the basics...mostly taking care of yourself and uniform.

You make a point about digging foxholes, perhaps they really needed to shoot at you so you would understand why soldiers dig foxholes? As for road marches, never heard of physical conditioning? Unit cohesion? Force marches are an integral part of a soldiers life. Read the history of the Army and a light bulb might just go off.

By the way, those soldiers that operate all this wizz-bang new tech, have proved long ago that they can shave and shine thier boots, and know how to dig a foxhole.

Your problem is you got stuck on stupid.

I will just stick to designing technology, I dont need to prove I can shine boots to build rockets (ie fill in high tech equipment) I just need to prove I am a technicaly proficient professional which I have done. The basics of flying a helicopter is not shining boots, thats like saying I need to be able to bake a pie in order to build a computer

And about that deceptive advertising......

you are still stuck on stupid in regards to serving your country and its military.

As someone who served in an aviation unit during a war, I can say without a doubt that you have no idea of what you are talking about rppearso.

Maybe you are a testament to the horrors of grade inflation. Take Gunny's advice and read some military history and you might just understand what the military is about. As for deceptive advertising – give me a break. What did you think you were doing – joining a fraternity?