Marines Probe Boot Camp Drowning
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6988854/

This news story is getting a lot of attention. In fact, a producer from the show Coast to Coast with Ron Reagan contacted MilitarySpot.com about a possible appearance concerning the story.

This story is just another case where cameras captured something that wasn't perfect, and people are going down for it. Just like in Iraq, where our fighting servicemen and women are being villified for fighting a WAR.

Of course, the drowning is unfortunate. But there is nothing inherently wrong with swim qual at Marine Boot Camp. They've trained millions of Marines the same way for decades.

The fact that a DI grabbed the guy's collar the day before is nothing. Though there is a hands off policy for DIs, there was some hands on when I went through boot camp, and I don't see anything wrong with it for the most part. For example:

I was the secretary of my platoon. The DI was having the platoon sign up for something, and the forms needed to be in alphabeticaly order right after the signing so that they could be turned in immediately. I went to the DI, stood at attention and said: "Sir, private requests a roll call formation," so that the platoon and forms would be in alphabetical order. Well, you don't go up to a DI and tell him what to do, even if it is a good idea and he hasn't thought of it. The DI punched me in the stomach pretty hard and said some stuff I can't remember as I ran back to the regular formation. I have to say that I deserved that punch in the stomach, as that was a really stupid thing to do.

Wow...this kinda makes me unsettled about boot camp.

lets see.....young man joins Marine Corps and finds out that Boot Camp isn't where he wants to be after all.

Perhaps we really do need to do something positive to ensure things like this do not occur. Something similar to Seal Training complete with the bell. Can't hack it, ring the bell get admin discharge. (for the good of the Corps)

Only those that successfully navigate boot camp and its requirements be allowed to earn the title MARINE. This kid should have been dropped long before swim qual.

I don't know about the bell ringing thing, some might ring the "give-up" bell in a moment of weakness. Boot camp is after all a process of removing that weakness. I went through Parris Island in 88 and there were plenty of opportunities for those that were too weak to either wash out or give up. We were still roughed up a little though the "Eyeballs" or depot inspectors were never too far away. Basically they never hit us in the face as that would leave to much evidence. It wasn't sadistic or gratuitous however. I can't remember anyone getting hit for anything that I myself wouldn't have hit them for.

What good is one that can't get over his moment of weakness to the Marine Corps? What good is one that is not committed to the Corps?

The Marine Corps, as you know.... isn't a boyz club that one just joins and gets everything handed to him, one has to earn the title of MARINE.

The words of Courage, Honor, Committment are not just simple words to Marines, it is our mantra. We live by them literally.

As for the recruit that died in the swim qual session, this is baffling to me, as this pool has sides where the recruit could have or should have grabbed. Recruits have been known to fail swim qual repeatedly, and still graduate. The key was the level of effort made by the recruit in his attempts to comply with the training requirement. The JAG investigation will bring out any deficiencies in the recruit training program. If the D.I. was at fault in any way shape or form, he will pay for it.

Just for the record, any recruit has the ability to drop out at any point during recruit training. In other words, if they simply give up and quit, then they get processed out. It ain't an easy thing or choice to make, but it is available to them.

I'm not sure where the Gunny is going with the "weakness" thing but my comments were meant to explain what actually happens in boot camp.

Recruits have weakness pushed out of them. That is really the crux of the whole process; a distillation process of sorts. Put some kind of bell or similar methodology to make quitting too easy and many of these 17 and 18 year old kids would never get past the first two weeks.

For those that simply don't have it in them to make it, all they have to do is give up. Johnny on the spot; they're done. Their DI's will make them feel like the effeminate little things that they are, but they can quit.

How does this apply to the drowned recruit? Because he volunteered for a situation where he was going to be pushed. That his DI's continued to push him despite his recalcitrance is simply part of the process. They push until you completely quit or get with it.

What happens in a stressful environment where there lurks even a controlled danger is that a recalcitrant man such as this recruit begins to falter because he’s not following instructions. He’s already checked out mentally. And then in light of his refusal to follow orders up until now, the first signs of danger are mistaken for more recalcitrance. Things snow ball quickly and now we have a death on our hands where we should have only had another statistic of someone who couldn’t make the cut.

More on the weakness thing.

I know there were some supermen like the gunny that just showed up at boot camp, already hard as nails and tough as a long day but for the rest of us; we needed someone to push us.

Putting some stupid bell in place would only make it too easy to quit. If they really want to quit, they can and they are told so from the very beginning. I was in before Bill Clinton and his gay little stress cards that recruits got, but we were told if we ever thought we were going to crack, just go the chaplain and no one will stop you.

Besides, why would any self respecting Marine want to emulate the Navy? SEAL training isn't for 18 year old kids right out of high school. Just like every other SpecOp training, Recon, SF or whatever, that type of training is highly individualized because those are Marines, soldiers and sailors that have already been through a certain amount of training and more can be expected of them.

To expect the same level of commmittment out of a kid whose sole military experience consists of two weeks of boot camp is ridiculous. That is what boot camp is for.

Airwinger....
You are making assumptions based on a few responses to issues that are or should be near and dear to each Marine. You really should engage one first before making these types of assumptions.

Here's a little more on my thinking....lets see what you make of it.

I find nothing wrong with the idea of emulating those that I hold in very high regard. I have an extreme amount of respect for our fellow sevice members such as US NAVY Seals, US ARMY Secial Forces and Rangers. Known, proven training methods that they incorporate as routine, should be brought into Marine Corps training. I'd even like to see Isreali and British SAS training incorporated as well. Are not the Marines of today mandated to earn belts from martial arts courses now?

Yet you indicate issue with that line of thought. Thats OK with me, you are entitled to hold that opinion. We can agree to disagree. I, for one feel that ANY training methods that are proven to give the trainee an edge in combat situation, be incorporated into our Marine training programs. The same holds true of methods that help our DI's weed out those that can't hack the training program. If one is man enough to make the attempt, then he has my respect, but also I recognize and acknowledge that not everyone who makes this attempt is suited to earn the title of MARINE. I also give respect to those that make the attempt and fail. Granted it is not at the same level of respect I give to those that have earned the title MARINE, but it is respect none the less.

Just so you know a little more about me both as a Marine and as a member of this board....
I served 16 years as I and O level Jet Mech on AV8's. My first 4 years was on the ground side of the Corps.

Boot showed me what I was capable of, and I used that to my advantage. Was I tough as nails already?...no, I was just like you and very probably just like each and every recruit that has gone through boot. Scared, stressed, but internally committed to complete what I started. Failure was never a thought or option to me. Looking back at it, I could of performed better, but my mindset served me well, so I have no regrets.

Gunny,

You’re comments were to suggest the bell system for letting a recruit give up. The source for your suggestion is the Navy SEAL training system and you’re right; I too have the utmost respect for other high speed units, Navy, Israeli or otherwise. Not emulating the Navy was a cheap shot on my part. (Most of my best friends are high speed types from other services – 82cnd Airborne etc, and even an Israeli airborne vet.)

The bell system might work with Navy personnel trying for the SEAL program but such an easy out system would not work for kids straight out of high school, still trying to figure out what’s really inside of them.

That was the crux of my original post.

Your response:
“What good is one that can't get over his moment of weakness to the Marine Corps? What good is one that is not committed to the Corps?

“The Marine Corps, as you know.... isn't a boyz club that one just joins and gets everything handed to him, one has to earn the title of MARINE.”

You were again attributing Marine traits to those that were not yet Marines. Therefore bypassing the whole process that boot camp is about; distilling the weakness out and replacing it with that inner strength that makes a man a warrior, Marine or otherwise.

This is the process of engaging you, reacting to what you (or anyone else) posts.

I was I level also; El Toro with an extended WesPac during the first Gulf War.

As I stated, I am all for ANYTHING (including adding a bell option) that helps the Corps produce high quality Marines for this counrty.

Once the individual stands on those yellow footprints at MCRD, he is a MARINE Recruit. Each individual has within himself, a Marine trait that I acknowledged and was refering too. That trait is the DESIRE to be a good MARINE.

So yes, I attribute certain traits to those that choose to stand on those yellow footprints.

These are pretty much the same kids just out of high school in Navy, Army and AirForce boot camp. My intent was only to look into other available lines of thought to prevent these same kids straight out of high school, still trying to figure out what’s really inside of them from having to die in the process.


So you and I are on the same page in regards to changing the program so that recruits don't have to die in boot camp?

The percentage of recruit deaths (very rare) does not warrant any changes in recruit training.

If a particular DI is found to be negligent or wantonly sadistic, then deal with that particular Marine.

Any death is tragic but one death out of the literal thousands of recruits who pass through those portals every year does not condemn the entire system.

The flaw in adopting specops methods for boot camp is that whether it’s SEAL, Recon or whatever, those units are dealing with men who have already passed through a certain level of training. Raw boot camp recruits have not been through that. That is, as I’ve already said, the purpose of boot camp.

This whole conversation is getting to be ridiculous actually. All a recruit has to do now is simply quit. Sure the DI’s will make him feel like dirt for doing so but that’s the price for failure. I went through Parris Island in 88 and even then they told you from day one “Don’t freak out and kill yourself or anyone else. Go to the chaplain and absolutely no one will stop you.”

So putting a bell or whatever silly little device that the busy bodies would want to come up with would be completely superfluous.

This does however underline the real point to this thread. That there are those, even among Marines as gunny has shown us, there are those out there that will want to condemn the entire system because of one, very statistically rare tragedy.

And that really is the crux of the whole matter.

As tragic as even one death is, it is a very rare occurrence but yet there are those that want to change everything because of one anomaly.

gunny insists that the entire system is broken because of one freak accident. I say otherwise.

I see that you and I are destined to be on the opposite of any debate. Good. I can work with that.

Let's just make sure we know what the sides are.

You're knee jerk reaction is to assume the worst of your fellow Marines.

One death out of multiple thousands of recruits safely going through boot camp and you're ready to change the system.

You have to assume that it is the fault of the Marine Corps recruit training system to reach such an opinion, despite the overall numbers that show recruit training to be extremely safe.

Lt. Pantano (another thread) is accused of murder in a war zone on obviously thin and contrived evidence and you're knee jerk reaction there is to go squishy "Well, it's not like he's in the brig."

yes, we're on different sides.

Those are your words, not mine. I haven't advocated that the entire system of boot camp is wrong. What a crock. Just because I suggested an alternative line of thought that might allow a weak person a way out?

If my saying something as simple as utilizing the bell as in Seal training would save a life, means 'The Gunny' says the entire Marine Corps training method is broken, then you need to get a friggin grip.

You're previous posts are easy enough for others to read. 'Nuff said.

Get a grip indeed.