I'm not an expert on....well anything about this issue (aircraft, procurement, etc). However, does seem to me the USMC and others have been pushing hard for an aircraft that's just not up to standard?

V-22 Osprey: A Flying Shame
Wednesday, Sep. 26, 2007 By MARK THOMPSON
TIME

It's hard to imagine an American weapons program so fraught with problems that Dick Cheney would try repeatedly to cancel it — hard, that is, until you get to know the Osprey. As Defense Secretary under George H.W. Bush, Cheney tried four times to kill the Marine Corps's ungainly tilt-rotor aircraft. Four times he failed. Cheney found the arguments for the combat troop carrier unpersuasive and its problems irredeemable. "Given the risk we face from a military standpoint, given the areas where we think the priorities ought to be, the V‑22 is not at the top of the list," he told a Senate committee in 1989. "It came out at the bottom of the list, and for that reason, I decided to terminate it." But the Osprey proved impossible to kill, thanks to lawmakers who rescued it from Cheney's ax time and again because of the home-district money that came with it — and to the irresistible notion that American engineers had found a way to improve on another great aviation breakthrough, the helicopter.

Full Article:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1665835,...?xid=feed-cnn-nation

And to think that the M-16 was invented when Eisenhower was president and we have not changed it. Spending money on big ticket items is the military way in our Military Industrial system. This plane is just too much of a Christmas present where the box is a better toy.

The helicopter took years to develop and get as correct as possible. It is a maintenance pig but a useful troop and supply carrier.

It has been a long, strange trip: the V-22 has been 25 years in development, more than twice as long as the Apollo program that put men on the moon. V-22 crashes have claimed the lives of 30 men — 10 times the lunar program's toll — all before the plane has seen combat.

The above statement where the reporter who wrote this story is making all the wrong comparisons. Who in thier right mind would compare an aircraft to flying to the friggin moon? No other aircraft has EVER been compared to flying to the moon.

We have a squadron of V-22's on station for the next 2 months for Weapons and Tactics exercise and believe me, the capabilities these aircraft bring to the Marines is phenominal. We also have the CH-53's and CH-46's here as well. I have been fortunate enough to have flown in all three of these machines and the V-22 outshines the other two in performance and stealth. Yeah I said stealth. You can hear a 53 and 46 long before you ever see them coming. The sound alone gets your attention to be looking for them and they aren't that hard to locate based entirely on your ears. The V-22 on the other hand is much harder to locate based on sound because it makes much less noise in the same flight pattern. It's way faster than either the 53 or 46. The 53 and 46's rotors make that charactoristic flapping noise but the V-22 doesn't do that in any flight mode.


I think the author of this article should be made to ride in a CH-46 with a platoon of grunts into a hot LZ. Providing he survives, turn him around and give him a ride in a V-22 into a hot LZ. I firmly believe he would change his tune.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: thegunny,

We don't expect anything different on CNN .I listened to the Marine Corp the other night on this program and everything they said makes sense so that is good enought for me.Every since this program started it has been stop started trying to cut cost.Every Bastard up on the hill has took a shot at it.

they scaled down the nose mounted helmet controlled .50 cal chain gun as its forward gun to a .30 cal, and then even after that all the ospreys being sent into iraq are equipped with are rear mounted 7.62s. its a damn shame, i had such high hopes when i first heard about it but now i'm hearing more and more that makes me think that the design was just fcked up

hmmm, perhaps you need a ride into a hot LZ in a CH-46 as well?

the v22 is a very useable aircraft it had some problems in testing but what aircraft doesn’t but when all of the bugs are worked out it will be like a god send to marines on the ground it can carry cargo like a airplane but can take off and land like a helicopter and I will remind u how many men died will testing the harrier jump jet but now it is a very important part of any air force

bunp to get the new nujob off the horizon

bump to get the new nujob off the horizon

Buddy of mine is currently enrolled at the Airforce Academy and got to spend some time aboard the CV-22 during training operations with the 512th Spec Ops Group in Kirtland Air Force Base in New Mexico. Said he liked the bird. Had some pictures he sent me I tried to upload here but unfortunately it didn't quite work out.

I just watched VX-3 squadron of V-22's take off.

Here's another negative article about the MV-22. I'm not really endorsing this (as I said before, I don't know enough about this to really argue for or against). Just playing a little devil's advocate by sharing this article. As a former infantryman, I can see this from his point of view as well...so...there's two points I'm kinda having issues with--

1. The CH-46 has the same problems with "tiny windows" and infantry going in blind (I remember plenty of times being a stick leader and strapping myself into the door gunner spot to get a look at the LZ as we came down because you couldn't see it from the back of the bird). Why aren't there the same concerns with this aircraft? Instead, this aircraft is touted as "one of the best in the world..." with one of the longest service records of any helicopter and very popular in foreign sales...I don't get it.

2. No desert training prior to deployment into the desert? I find this really hard to believe.

Osprey will endanger Marines in combat

By: J. STRYKER MEYER - Staff Writer
Design flaws still make tilt-rotor aircraft unacceptable for imminent Iraq deployment.

There's so much to admire about the Marine Corps. The fighting quality and spirit of the combat Marines who go into harm's way are second to none. For more than two centuries Marines have fought hard for this country, often with horrific death tolls, such as during the bloody Pacific Islands campaign during World War II.

During the Vietnam War, I had the privilege of working with Marine Corps helicopter gunship crews while running secret missions into Laos, Cambodia and North Vietnam as a member of Army Special Forces.

I'm alive today thanks to the courage of Marine aviators, including men from HML 367, which had the unique radio call sign of "Scarface." Today's Marines in Scarface continue to fly into harm's way in Iraq and they continue to serve honorably.

However, there's an aviation and high command component of the Marine Corps that defies logic today by continuing to foist off the experimental tilt-rotor aircraft that flies like an airplane but takes off and lands in a helicopter mode of flight.

Full article:
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/11/04/perspective/9_06_3411_3_07.txt

Aww, you guy's already know how I feel about articles like this. The guy that wrote this hasn't got a clue. The wings rotate? That should be the first indication that this guy hasn't even been next to one of these birds! The wings are fixed, and the engine nacelles themselves rotate.

Size of the windows issue? I've flown in botht he CH-46 and CH-53 varients and those both have small windows, I oughta know, I've popped out enough of them with my pack during my flights. We used to do it just to piss off the crew chiefs that were being dickheads towards us.

And here's some good news.....

Ospreys succeeding in Iraq, Marine Corps says

The first Marine squadron to fly the controversial Osprey tilt-rotor in a combat zone is doing well, and likely will be replaced in Iraq by another North Carolina Osprey squadron when it returns to the state this spring, a Marine spokesman said.

Full Article--
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/829781.html

The troubled, revolutionary V-22 "Osprey" tiltrotor aircraft - which takes off and lands like a helicopter, but flies from place to place like a fixed-wing plane - appears to have finally left most of its development snags behind it.

The first operational Osprey squadron has been operating in Iraq for three months, initially under a news blackout. But there have been no mishaps so far, and chuffed military bigwigs have begun to allow reports out.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/08/osprey_v22_iraq_operations_ok/

Is it true that the V-22 can not carry the same equipment the helo's do, because the inside of the V-22 is too small?

Here's a letter from a Squadron CO that operates this aircraft, that expresses his feelings and considered opinion for the V-22.

I would also like to point out that internal load capacity in helo-borne operations of which I myself have considerable experience is vastly misunderstood by those that have no first hand experience. The large majority of equipment flown into military LZ's by medium and heavy lift helicopters is carried externally.



COL. GLENN WALTERS - commentary

Unlike most of the V-22 critics, I have actually flown the MV-22 Osprey.

I flew hundreds of hours in this remarkable aircraft when I commanded the Marine Corps' test and evaluation squadron 2003-2006, and I am obliged to tell the truth.

The truth is the Osprey is the most thoroughly tested aircraft in the history of aviation for one fundamental reason: the safety of its passengers. Our nation expects that the military will use the best engineered, maintained and operated equipment available. Our troops deserve it. The Osprey we are flying today is just that.

Some critics say that we haven't flown the Osprey in the desert. Not true. My squadron flew in desert environments on multiple occasions totaling months of tests. The squadron now in Iraq completed several desert training periods prior to deploying. In fact, we just had another squadron of MV-22s in California and Arizona doing more of the same. Not only can the Ospreys fly in the desert, the aircraft's advanced technology makes it easier than in any other rotorcraft to land in brownout conditions.

Other critics point out that the MV-22 does not have a forward-firing weapon, but none puts this in context: no medium or heavy lift aircraft in the U.S. inventory has a forward-firing weapon. MV-22s flying in Iraq have ramp-mounted machine guns, which have become the standard on our aircraft in operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, based on the threat. That, and the inherent capabilities of the aircraft (range, speed and altitude), give the MV-22 the ability to reduce susceptibility and vulnerability to many threats.

The MV-22 has limited visibility through the cabin windows, much like the CH-46 and the CH-53E, but what most critics do not know is that the troop commander, who rides in the back of the Osprey, has unparalleled situational awareness from the on-board precision navigation system with moving maps and a significant communications capability. These capabilities are not an option in existing Marine Corps aircraft.

The MV-22 is the most maneuverable medium lift assault support platform in the world. Conventional helicopters are limited to standard rotary wing tactics and airspeeds, while the MV-22 has the ability to fly like a turboprop airplane as well as a conventional helicopter. As an airplane, it can climb or descend at a significantly higher rate than any helicopter and transit at much higher speeds.

Vortex Ring State is a phenomenon experienced by all rotorcraft ---- not just the Osprey. While the MV-22 is the only aircraft with a warning system that alerts pilots to VRS conditions, it is the least susceptible to this phenomenon.

To argue whether the aircraft is worth the money spent is an unending debate. To the injured Marine or soldier whose life is saved due to the unparalleled capabilities of the MV-22, I would posit that the aircraft is worth every penny.

Col. Walters heads the Marine Corps' aviation plans section in the Pentagon and previously commanded Marine Tiltrotor Operational Test and Evaluation Squadron Twenty-Two (VMX-22).

quote:

Is it true that the V-22 can not carry the same equipment the helo's do, because the inside of the V-22 is too small?

I've never heard that as an issue....as TheGunny pointed out, many of the capabilities advertised by other helicopters are external lift. I've heard the Opsrey is comparable to other helicopters in both internal and external load lift capabilities.