My personal opinion is screw the abuse !! I take the same stand as Zell Miller. WE have a job to do, let's get 'er done !! I didn't think what the US forces did was too terrible and this is even lighter. The freakin leftist biased media needs to be cut loose. War is not a place for instant reporting. Maybe if these animals were playing by the rules, I might have a change of heart. Screw this attitude of "we're better than them" !! Murderers need killin, murders need stopped.

The big problem is, that this is an ugly job to do, when you fight a war against terrorist, extremists, we invite the media to accompy us.

The problem is then that somone who lives in a world untouched by violence and threat, suddenly sees this violence, and does comprehend or realise that the areana that they have entered, has changed all values.

I agree that we must have values, and stand above the sess pool of terrorism, but we must fight fire with fire, to try to win a war with rules, and values that only we value and understand, can sometimes be our downfall. We have to find a balance, and find tactics that work, and are effective, and at the same time win over hearts and minds.

However we need to be able to live with ourselves after, and be aware that history will judge, and only time will tell all.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thor:
My personal opinion is screw the abuse !! I take the same stand as Zell Miller. WE have a job to do, let's get 'er done !! I didn't think what the US forces did was too terrible and this is even lighter. The freakin leftist biased media needs to be cut loose. War is not a place for instant reporting. Maybe if these animals were playing by the rules, I might have a change of heart. Screw this attitude of "we're better than them" !! Murderers need killin, murders need stopped.

---

While I agree that murderers and killers need to be stopped, I can't help wondering at what our outrage would be if we had seen our soldiers in those pictures on the other end of it..I don't think then we would have thought them 'college pranks' or them doing what was necessary to get info.

But the idiot who took the damn pictures really is the one who needs a dose of this kind of treatment himself, I think. What is it these days with all the pictures?

We will do what we need to do, but it needs to be rare not widespread..and only used when absolutely necessary and not by some rejects from deliverance like the one who just got ten years..which I think was a bit excessive; hopefully he will get out in far less than that..after all, how much time was Calley sentenced to and how much did he actually do? And for a far worse crime, too.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thor:
My personal opinion is screw the abuse !! I take the same stand as Zell Miller. WE have a job to do, let's get 'er done !! I didn't think what the US forces did was too terrible and this is even lighter. The freakin leftist biased media needs to be cut loose. War is not a place for instant reporting. Maybe if these animals were playing by the rules, I might have a change of heart. Screw this attitude of "we're better than them" !! Murderers need killin, murders need stopped.

---

Generally, I agree. When we catch some killer doing some killing, then kill the bastard. Nonetheless, that isn't the case with the folks we capture and hold in these places, because our guys kill the bastards when they catch 'em in the act. They don't throw 'em in jail.

Keep in my mind that our troops have a hard time distinguishing which informant is telling the truth, which one is trying to get revenge on someone he hates, and which one is trying to just make a buck.

Just because we have someone locked up does not mean we know they're guilty of the charge they're being detained upon. I'm sure you know that we hurried up the process of letting goi the guys for whom we no evidence of any crime, after the prison scandal broke.

Our own military admits that they locked up a lot of people on little or no evidence. Not because we're big meanies, but because it was better for us to be safe now and apologize later. Understaffing led to a backlog on getting around to releasing those folks that we couldn't prosecute.

I'm sure things are better now, but I am equally sure that our guys take some people in without a lot of evidence, just to be on the safe side.

RANT (on):
Let's put it into perspective ... beheading civilians and burning/dismembering bodies is torture ... this barely qualifies as a frat prank

Since these , ...ummmm... people , don't qualify for coverage under the Geneva Convention, I say that if 1 American (or allied nation) life is saved by the enthusiastic questioning of these prisoners - it was worth it!

I get tired of being told how we have to hold the "moral high ground", there is no question of that ... I don't think we COULD be barbaric enough to lose THAT if we tried!

Don't tie our hands on how to perform the necessary job, just stfu and enjoy the safety and security that we are providing for you!

Rant(off)

we wouldn't have any trouble holding the moral high ground if our guys would just stop taking them damn pictures.

I'm the kind of guy that figures that the best license plate number is the one hardest to remember.

My big question is were we really trying to get info out of these people, or were we just doing it for the fun of it? Gotta remember that some of the sexual activities that took place in Abu is not something that I would want happening to our troops in a prisoner of war camp. I dont know about you all. . .but I for one couldn't watch my own troops make prisoners perform some of the things they were doing in the pics. There are other ways to humiliate people. . .its called torture. IMO

Then again. . . they aren't recognized under Geneva. . .so I guess anything goes.

What amazes me, is that these people take photos, and are then surprised that they are used as evidence.

What the hell happened to OPSEC, cameras in many places should be restricted.

Well despite whether or not these folks were carrying out orders. . .I have seen brighter individuals in the military. They were doing things w/ each other as a unit, and not just w/ the prisoners. What goes around comes around!!

The sad fact is, that we all know that there are people who are like this in the military, in every country. People who get off of a power trip, bullys, pervs, whatever you want to call them.

There are two ways you can get to see the real person behind the facade.

1: Put them under pressure, and see what happens, and how they behave.

2: Give them power, and see what happens and how they behave.

The fact of the matter is also there was a break down in command, someone let of of the disciplinary structure of the unit. They should be accountable too.

That's what irks me the most. Shit rolls downhill, and the small guy usually is the one to get it. The ones who made the orders..the instigators..the higher ups in rank who should have provided better leadership at the very least..those are going to be the ones that can just resign their commission and get out and away scot free.

What irks me the most if fake vets. You are right about one thing though, honey. Shit definately rolls downhill. How far is Ft. Sill from Stigler? I got a son graudating from OSUT later this year. I'll be in the area. I'll have to give a nice "Howdy" to ya.