I was singled out as an OCS candidate, I got alot of special attention, but that is not really relavant. What is relavant is it does not matter how many people were assulted or harrassed its still assult and harrasment. Its kinda hard to sue the government when they make the rules but there are some serious ethics issues with military training that needs to be taken to congress to disolve the laws that the military hides behind to justify there behavior. And in my opinion it is the treatment of holdovers and the injured and people that want to quit being recycled into an enviornment that they cant handle to begin with that is the issue. If someone continues to want to be there thats fine, but the moment someone rings the bell or throws in the towel that should be it, hands off here is your ELS thanks for trying, bye bye.

The question I have to ask you is do you honestly want to be fighting along side people that dont want to be there and put out the minimum effort to aviod harrasment?

Ronald, why argue things you do not understand? You opinion of the law has no basis in the real law either civilian or military. Based upon your quotes, it has no moral or either standing either.

Maybe we should list your quotes by number and then list answers the same way.

33,15 to you!

I guess I will never understand why you would want to fight beside someone who does not want to be there and does not care and does not really have a will to fight. I just follow things logicly so if there is some deeper reasoning that is beyond logic I guess thats the detrement of having a technical logical mind.

Why do the seals (or any elite unit for that matter) allow you to throw in the towel and not basic?

Its not ranting, I am challenging you to come up with a solid answer. Of which I do not believe there to be a solid answer so prove me wrong. The questions I ask are not like asking why the US is communist. Im not asking about why people want to quit or the mentality of thoes that want to quit.

Maybe the moderator sees the validity of my comments and questions whether he agrees or not. I dont need to have a harvard law degree to know that if you walked up to someone on the street and verbally harrased them you could be arrested, so trying to make a personal attack about my opinion of the law does not add any value.

Ctrl C Ctrl V

If he learns from his mistakes, pretty soon he'll know everything.
-Anon

Ctrl C Ctrl V

Reappraisal, n.: An abrupt change of mind after being found out.

You fellas needa stop feeding the troll.

I don't know Horsemen, I am getting along with my mother-in-law much better now!

A little troll food:
By the way, Round Ronald, logic has reason attached to it and you will not listen to that. You are expressing your feelings of superiority again (which is another psychological problem that you have).

Dear Rppearso,

There are several things that I believe you do not understand. This misunderstanding between you and the rest of the forum is causing great distress. Let me try to alleviate some of that here in this thread.

Please here me out.
Thank you.

quote:

I know how laughable it is when you say you earned your commission, having been there myself. You got some dirt kicked in your face and talked down to by some TAC sgts and officers. You may have stood in front of a formation and given some commands for a few mins before the TAC sgts chewed you out and kicked more dirt in your face. I think it is funny that you want to toote the fact that you earned your commission, when all earning your commission comes down to is tolerating hazing and belitlement.

I believe you are mistaken on several of your accusations. First, you cannot reduce a large, complex entity into simple sarcastic bits then characterize and define the system on those bits. If you are trying to express that those are only examples that allude to common occurrences in the program, than you are wrong. The military does not sanction hazing. They are hunting down and prosecuting “abusive” drill sergeants, perhaps to a fault. From LINK: "Hazing is neither useful nor necessary," said David M. Brahms, who retired from the Marines in 1988 as a brigadier general and top legal officer and who is now a lawyer in California. "You can't create people who are disciplined, who are law-abiding and who will adhere to the buddy system by the use of brutality." Drill sergeants still get carried away, commanders say, but not often. The Army, the largest branch of the military, had about 2,600 drill sergeants training almost 180,000 recruits in each of the last two years. It received 99 complaints of abuse in 2003 and 109 last year. Investigators deemed that 86 of those were "founded" in 2003 and 76 in 2004, with most involving physical abuse, sexual misconduct or verbal abuse. According to their detailed manual, drill sergeants may address recruits only as "soldier" or "private," or by surname. With few exceptions, they must ask before touching a recruit; the use of extra pushups as a "corrective action" remains common, but with limits. At the end of their nine weeks of initial basic training, recruits can discuss any complaints with the commander, whether about the food, the homework or the drills, in "sensing sessions." "We're not here to coddle them," Sgt. Brian Schrank said as he watched fellow trainers hustle bewildered arrivals into straight lines. "But there's a saying," he added. "Every now and then you take off your hat for a while and just talk to them."

From LINK: Marine Corps Order 1700.28, which defines hazing and the Marine Corps' intent on the issue, states that "no Marine ... may engage in hazing or consent to acts of hazing being committed upon them." According to Vanfonda, asking to have a hazing ritual performed on you "doesn't make you hard, it makes you stupid."


Secondly, hazing is more than doing extra pushups or verbally abused. I have experienced an extreme form of hazing at a Boy Scouts of America camp. Think I’m joking? Each kid and parent unknowingly signs a loophole-ridden document that lets the staff forcefully remove kids in the middle of the night, run them through the woods in the pitch black, with the counselors only dressed in a butt flap. Yes, only a butt flap. They then FORCE you to stand for hours along a hill with spiders and shit biting you while they teach you a ritual which you need to perform by memory with “the chief” before they let you go. They feed you canned salisbury steak at the dinner before they do this to you so you pass gass, then get reprimanded FORCEFULLY for it during the “ceremony”. I emphasize FORCEFULLY. http://www.7ranges.org/

And it’s totally legal, and there’s totally nothing anyone can do about it. THAT’S hazing.

quote:

Its also not my fault that I had to put my discussion in elementry school terms for horsemen to understand. Otherwise my rant would have been right on topic.

I suppose you have to stoop down to converse with all the lowly, mindless drones that inhabit the military. Or all of life, for that matter. But that shouldn’t be so hard, especially for a man such as yourself.

quote:

The military is the only place I know that can get away with hazing because they line it out in little books so it makes it ok. How about if fraternitys write codes of conduct for initiation, so when someone gets hurt or drinks themselves into a hospital they can say oh it was in the manual so everything is ok now.

Source? This is in fact contradictory to anything I’ve yet read so far.

quote:

I should not have to quote anything unless you disagree that drills have a manual of conduct, so if they have a code of conduct that enables them to put people through what they do in basic it stands to reason that an insitution (I used a fraternity as an example) should be able to write up a code of conduct and be exempt from the law. Because yelling in someones ear is assult and depriving someone of sleep is harasment, they are real charges but not for drills because they have a code of conduct that allows them to dabble outside of the law.

Are you kidding me? Again, those things are NOT hazing. There are exceptions, but the instructors have to wear you down, so they can cut you open and peer inside to see what you’re really made of. It’s physical and mental challenges, and the POINT OF IT ALL is that through guidance you find it in yourself to overcome any situation. It is not a sadistic death-cult. It is the military. Most soldiers in the military will murder someone in the course of their career. They will travel to hell and back because that’s what needs to be done. And- from what I’ve inferred- that’s what training in various forms prepares you for, in one sense or the other.

quote:

I was singled out as an OCS candidate, I got alot of special attention, but that is not really relavant. What is relavant is it does not matter how many people were assulted or harrassed its still assult and harrasment. Its kinda hard to sue the government when they make the rules but there are some serious ethics issues with military training that needs to be taken to congress to disolve the laws that the military hides behind to justify there behavior. And in my opinion it is the treatment of holdovers and the injured and people that want to quit being recycled into an enviornment that they cant handle to begin with that is the issue. If someone continues to want to be there thats fine, but the moment someone rings the bell or throws in the towel that should be it, hands off here is your ELS thanks for trying, bye bye.

The question I have to ask you is do you honestly want to be fighting along side people that dont want to be there and put out the minimum effort to aviod harrasment?

Again, sources? Everything I’ve read contradicts your statements, even so far as to say the government and military is OVER-correcting.

Maybe you received “special attention” because the instructors realized that you needed it. They do this for the reasons I have mentioned previously.

quote:

I guess I will never understand why you would want to fight beside someone who does not want to be there and does not care and does not really have a will to fight. I just follow things logicly so if there is some deeper reasoning that is beyond logic I guess thats the detrement of having a technical logical mind.

Oh, please! Few soldiers have ever been certain of their mission. That goes for the revered WWII, as well. I really doubt that you are so superior that any other soldier cannot comprehend your logic. Your “technical, logical mind” is in everyone’s body. It’s your personality that might be fond of logical reasoning or empiricism, but that depends mostly on education and experience, not natural ability.

quote:

Why do the seals (or any elite unit for that matter) allow you to throw in the towel and not basic?

Because all Special Operations branches are not the basic military. They are above and beyond that training- a “specialty”. In basic, you give your word and pledge your support. YOU BETTER DAMN WELL MEAN IT.

quote:

Its not ranting, I am challenging you to come up with a solid answer. Of which I do not believe there to be a solid answer so prove me wrong. The questions I ask are not like asking why the US is communist. Im not asking about why people want to quit or the mentality of thoes that want to quit.

Maybe the moderator sees the validity of my comments and questions whether he agrees or not. I dont need to have a harvard law degree to know that if you walked up to someone on the street and verbally harrased them you could be arrested, so trying to make a personal attack about my opinion of the law does not add any value.

Where have you lived again? You have a skewed view of reality. I cannot easily reason this to you because it should be experienced first and foremost. I do not know how to explain the real world to someone who denies that it exists.

Walk down the east side of Cleveland and shout expletives at people. You won’t get arrested. You’ll get beaten, raped, robbed, and shot. All those things, in any order, and then some.

That is not an exaggeration.


Hope I clearly conveyed my points. Thanks for reading.
Peash.

I loved that post so much I want to have sex with it.

quote:

I loved that post so much I want to have sex with it.

That's what I thought about Fort Bliss...

I, uh....that's just disturbing....